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The US seems to be having a general collapse on multiple fronts due to the apparent unwillingness to tax corporations and the wealthy to a reasonable level. I’v

The US seems to be having a general collapse on multiple fronts due to the apparent unwillingness to tax corporations and the wealthy to a reasonable level. I’ve heard the same thing about infrastructure. Yet European nations that are not as rich as the U.S. seem to be having issues but doing ok on healthcare, infrastructure and public education.

csdvrx 4y ago
> Yet European nations that are not as rich as the U.S. seem to be having issues but doing ok on healthcare, infrastructure and public education. They seem to be having issues with at least pensions, healthcare and public education
- rendall 4y ago
  People keep speaking about "Europe" as if it's not 44 nations and many more languages and peoples.
  - replygirl 4y ago
    the united states has a similar land area, similar number of states, over 500 sovereign constituent nations, two widely spoken languages, with largely unrestricted travel and trade within. europe does fund and coordinate social investments that involve multiple states. it's a useful comparison
    - rendall 4y ago
      It is definitely not reasonable to say that Europe is having trouble with public education or pensions or infrastructure.
      - replygirl 4y ago
        sure it is. many aspects of the continent are subject to federal governance, and before that was the case, much of the social and infrastructural development was interdependent due to support+direction from the us in the west and the soviet union in the east
        rendall 4y ago
        Federal governance?
        kranke155 4y ago
        No idea what he’s talking about. It seems to be a thing in right wing groups now to talk about Europe in this way.
- replygirl 4y ago
  infrastructure too: they have the same problem with old bridges, with a few recent collapses and many closed to freight; they have an ongoing energy crisis; they have coastal cities in both the north and south where the flood risk is both more imminent and more potentially destructive
base698 4y ago
Why do you think more taxing would fix it when we are already near the top of per capita spending per student? https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd
- kranke155 4y ago
  Might not help there, I’m not an expert. I just said it because Americans will come in and say “there is no way”. Sorry, there is another way and Europe lives in that other way.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  US public education (pre-college) is sorta similar to US healthcare: they spend the most per-capita in the world, and get, on average, very poor results.
nine_zeros 4y ago
The American social contract is broken. Government services are utterly broken, not just due to incompetence but because taxing the rich is seen as anti-capitalistic. If it were not for the strength of the dollar, the US would have been no different from a third world country. Crony capitalists, uneducated populace, politicians lying to said uneducated populace, corruption at all levels (there is county-level lobbying too), healthcare is inaccessible to the average person and the homeless and prison population is greater than the population of some US states combined
musicale 4y ago
Am I reading these charts correctly? They seem to be showing relatively high spending on education and health care compared to other countries. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://www.statista.com/statistics/281589/countries-with-highest-health-expenditure-as-a-percent-of-gdp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/281589/countries-with-hi...
- kranke155 4y ago
  The health care system is problematic not because it’s not well funded but because parts of the population can’t access it? I have bipolar and I know online communities where the Americans with BPD talk about not being able to afford their meds.
belugacat 4y ago
Can you be a bit more specific with what you mean by "collapse"? When we talk about a bridge or a building collapsing, we're talking about a very obvious and immediate mode of failure. Are you using "collapse" to mean "noticeable degradation"? FWIW, the European nation I'm from (France) is definitely not doing OK on healthcare and public education (and debatable on infrastructure). Hard to compare with the US 1:1 in any case, but I'm not sure I'd designate either as a collapse.
- kranke155 4y ago
  Im just taking it from Americans. I’ve never visited and maybe I best stay quiet. But the HN trend with these things is always to say “the whole world is like this” No no it’s not. The US is lagging behind on many indicators. Another world is not only possible, it actually exists.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >Are you using "collapse" to mean "noticeable degradation"? Do you believe that the Roman Empire never "collapsed"? Probably every historian would agree that it did, however that collapse took centuries to complete.
megaman821 4y ago
It is not sufficient to merely fund something, you have to competently execute on it too. The US education system has more than adequately funding, but suffers from terrible administration. On top of that schools are tasked with too much stuff. On top of general education, schools have to deal with child hunger, child abuse, mental well being, gender and sexuality issues. These should all be separate government provided services. Do we want our teachers to be educators or social servants?
- kranke155 4y ago
  Sounds like the public school system is being made into a scapegoat. Very easy to say “public schooling is broken” when you’ve assigned it 500 tasks and funded it for 10.
ams92 4y ago
You wouldn’t even need to raise taxes to improve some of these programs. Just stop spending such an absurd amount of money on the military.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  The US doesn't spend that much on the military in terms of percentage of GDP. Compare it to other developed nations, and it looks pretty average really. The US already spends more per-capita on students than any other nation. The problem is not funding. Throwing more money at the problem isn't going to help.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The US doesn’t spend that much on the military in terms of percentage of GDP. Compare it to other developed nations, and it looks pretty average really. All of the countries with higher GDP share in military expenditures than the US are in one of the following groups: (1) Middle Eastern countries, (2) Non-Western-aligned former Soviet Republics, (3) Greece, Pakistan, and Morocco. Of 145 countries with data, the US is #15. It is #3 in the G20, #1 in the G10, #8 of 48 among “high income countries” – with Greece and 7 Middle Eastern countries making up the top 7. It is nowhere close to “pretty average” among “other developed nations”. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/mil_spend_gdp/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/mil_spend_gdp/ > The US already spends more per-capita on students than any other nation. Funny that shift from percent GDP to make your (false, even with that standard) claim about US not having high military spending, but shift to per capita rather than per GDP for education spending. On that, the US is merely fairly middle of the pack for developed nations, with 3.2% of GDP in primary/secondary education, compared to 3.1% OECD average.

csdvrx 4y ago

> Yet European nations that are not as rich as the U.S. seem to be having issues but doing ok on healthcare, infrastructure and public education. They seem to be having issues with at least pensions, healthcare and public education

rendall 4y ago
People keep speaking about "Europe" as if it's not 44 nations and many more languages and peoples.
- replygirl 4y ago
  the united states has a similar land area, similar number of states, over 500 sovereign constituent nations, two widely spoken languages, with largely unrestricted travel and trade within. europe does fund and coordinate social investments that involve multiple states. it's a useful comparison
  - rendall 4y ago
    It is definitely not reasonable to say that Europe is having trouble with public education or pensions or infrastructure.
    - replygirl 4y ago
      sure it is. many aspects of the continent are subject to federal governance, and before that was the case, much of the social and infrastructural development was interdependent due to support+direction from the us in the west and the soviet union in the east
      - rendall 4y ago
        Federal governance?
        kranke155 4y ago
        No idea what he’s talking about. It seems to be a thing in right wing groups now to talk about Europe in this way.
replygirl 4y ago
infrastructure too: they have the same problem with old bridges, with a few recent collapses and many closed to freight; they have an ongoing energy crisis; they have coastal cities in both the north and south where the flood risk is both more imminent and more potentially destructive

base698 4y ago

Why do you think more taxing would fix it when we are already near the top of per capita spending per student? https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

kranke155 4y ago
Might not help there, I’m not an expert. I just said it because Americans will come in and say “there is no way”. Sorry, there is another way and Europe lives in that other way.
midoridensha 4y ago
US public education (pre-college) is sorta similar to US healthcare: they spend the most per-capita in the world, and get, on average, very poor results.

nine_zeros 4y ago

The American social contract is broken. Government services are utterly broken, not just due to incompetence but because taxing the rich is seen as anti-capitalistic. If it were not for the strength of the dollar, the US would have been no different from a third world country. Crony capitalists, uneducated populace, politicians lying to said uneducated populace, corruption at all levels (there is county-level lobbying too), healthcare is inaccessible to the average person and the homeless and prison population is greater than the population of some US states combined

musicale 4y ago

Am I reading these charts correctly? They seem to be showing relatively high spending on education and health care compared to other countries. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd https://www.statista.com/statistics/281589/countries-with-highest-health-expenditure-as-a-percent-of-gdp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/281589/countries-with-hi...

kranke155 4y ago
The health care system is problematic not because it’s not well funded but because parts of the population can’t access it? I have bipolar and I know online communities where the Americans with BPD talk about not being able to afford their meds.

belugacat 4y ago

Can you be a bit more specific with what you mean by "collapse"? When we talk about a bridge or a building collapsing, we're talking about a very obvious and immediate mode of failure. Are you using "collapse" to mean "noticeable degradation"? FWIW, the European nation I'm from (France) is definitely not doing OK on healthcare and public education (and debatable on infrastructure). Hard to compare with the US 1:1 in any case, but I'm not sure I'd designate either as a collapse.

kranke155 4y ago
Im just taking it from Americans. I’ve never visited and maybe I best stay quiet. But the HN trend with these things is always to say “the whole world is like this” No no it’s not. The US is lagging behind on many indicators. Another world is not only possible, it actually exists.
midoridensha 4y ago
>Are you using "collapse" to mean "noticeable degradation"? Do you believe that the Roman Empire never "collapsed"? Probably every historian would agree that it did, however that collapse took centuries to complete.

megaman821 4y ago

It is not sufficient to merely fund something, you have to competently execute on it too. The US education system has more than adequately funding, but suffers from terrible administration. On top of that schools are tasked with too much stuff. On top of general education, schools have to deal with child hunger, child abuse, mental well being, gender and sexuality issues. These should all be separate government provided services. Do we want our teachers to be educators or social servants?

kranke155 4y ago
Sounds like the public school system is being made into a scapegoat. Very easy to say “public schooling is broken” when you’ve assigned it 500 tasks and funded it for 10.

ams92 4y ago

You wouldn’t even need to raise taxes to improve some of these programs. Just stop spending such an absurd amount of money on the military.

midoridensha 4y ago
The US doesn't spend that much on the military in terms of percentage of GDP. Compare it to other developed nations, and it looks pretty average really. The US already spends more per-capita on students than any other nation. The problem is not funding. Throwing more money at the problem isn't going to help.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The US doesn’t spend that much on the military in terms of percentage of GDP. Compare it to other developed nations, and it looks pretty average really. All of the countries with higher GDP share in military expenditures than the US are in one of the following groups: (1) Middle Eastern countries, (2) Non-Western-aligned former Soviet Republics, (3) Greece, Pakistan, and Morocco. Of 145 countries with data, the US is #15. It is #3 in the G20, #1 in the G10, #8 of 48 among “high income countries” – with Greece and 7 Middle Eastern countries making up the top 7. It is nowhere close to “pretty average” among “other developed nations”. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/mil_spend_gdp/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/mil_spend_gdp/ > The US already spends more per-capita on students than any other nation. Funny that shift from percent GDP to make your (false, even with that standard) claim about US not having high military spending, but shift to per capita rather than per GDP for education spending. On that, the US is merely fairly middle of the pack for developed nations, with 3.2% of GDP in primary/secondary education, compared to 3.1% OECD average.