10 ms·

The Battle over Techno’s Origins

126 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

amiga386 4y ago
What Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music[0] has to say on Electro: > There are whole libraries full of books about how white music culture is just a safe and boring pastiche of black music culture. From Jazz to Blues to Rock n Roll to Funk and to a lesser extent even Hip Hop, white America's greatest musical innovations have all been sheepishly stolen from the black man, often without any credit or compensation. > Rarely is it mentioned that cultural appropriation works both ways, that on a select few occasions the black man has also stolen -- and expanded upon -- the innovations of square-ass stuffy-headed white dorks. Electro is one of those genres. And those square-ass stuffy-headed white dorks were Kraftwerk. (he also asks important questions like "If Bambaataa is the focal point for the immortalization of Kraftwerk and the existence of Electro, would we be having this discussion if he sampled YMO instead?") and on Techno: > Affluent middle class black youth living in the peaceful Detroit suburb of Belleville Michigan in the late 70s, raised by the scions of the automative industry. They had money to spend and parties to attend but rather than identify with the harsh street sounds of Rap coming out of New York, they looked instead toward mainland Europe to emulate the latest trends in fashion and music. [...] > Detroit Techno was never more than a regional genre and it never blew up like House, Garage or Rap. That is, until 1988 when this generic mean-nothing uneventful compilation [Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit] made it overseas [...] If they called it Poopyfart, today we would all be waxing nostalgic about the oldskool Detroit Poopyfart sound of the Belleville Trio. > The Detroit Techno dudes who grew up idolizing European synthesizer music were now idolized in Europe. This spawned a number of Techno subgenres across the ocean, all of them interesting for various reasons that have nothing to do with Detroit. [...] But it was the word 'Techno' that blew up and not the actual sound, and for this reason Detroit felt somewhat ashamed to associate their city with marked-up prancing goofball euroshite [...] > With time comes restitution. Detroit took the word back with a big-ass music festival, an exhibit in the Detroit Historical Museum (right beside the Motown exhibit) [...] Things have come full circle. Techno is once again the embodiment of Detroit. [0]: https://music.ishkur.com/ https://music.ishkur.com/
- projectazorian 4y ago
  FYI: Ishkur’s guide was a great resource in the 90s when it went well beyond anything else available on the internet at the time, but it shouldn’t be taken as anything approaching canonical. It’s not clear what his qualifications are to pontificate aside from that he was around in Detroit when some of this was going on, and he was the first to make a website about it.
twic 4y ago
This is Charanjit Singh erasure.
throwaway743 4y ago
I mean yeah Detroit's scene is significant in a historical context, but if we're talking electronic music, Kraftwerk is definitely up there as pioneers.
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  I think it's mostly semantics, it seems pretty axiomatic to me that Detroit Techno is from Detroit... but people like to have a simple label to slap on all EDM, and tend to reach for 'techno' which is vague at best. Short documentary on UR on YT - https://youtu.be/fe7sC4SAvc0 https://youtu.be/fe7sC4SAvc0
  - _9hey 4y ago
    > people ... tend to reach for 'techno' which is vague at best Exactly this. Journalism is such a joke these days - their agenda of sowing discord is blatant. Those familiar with the history of techno wouldn't call it a battle at all. It was about P.L.U.R. It wasn't pretentious and divisive like this generation.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      >Those familiar with the history of techno wouldn't call it a battle at all. It was about P.L.U.R. It wasn't pretentious and divisive like this generation. I feel like a broken record in this thread so maybe I should just move on, but comments like these genuinely confuse me. This has been a debate within the scene going back decades, and has always been a point of contention for many of the people who were in the Detroit scene during it's inception. They've always claimed it as theirs and have often taken umbrage or scoffed when people have claimed it's European in origin. It was about unity, yes, but as the scene grew in the late 80's/early 90's, so did the battle over it's origins.
      - _9hey 4y ago
        Making any claim about its inception is misguided, because it is not a single thing. One could argue that Robert Moog and Don Buchla invented techno in the 60s. It probably goes back further. It’s all standing on the shoulders of giants.
tetrisgm 4y ago
I like the New Yorker. I love the works of Juan Atkins and Derrick May. "The situation escalated when Peter Feldmann, then the mayor of Frankfurt, sent an invitation for momem’s opening party welcoming guests “in the middle of Frankfurt, where techno has its origin.” The accumulated snubs set off a conflagration in the fiercely protective techno community". This is silly. Of course the mayor of Frankfurt is gonna promote his shiny new museum, and probably doesn't know a ton about the Detroit scene. That's not a reason to frame this as whitewashed, or blame the German effort to highlight their works. What we need is more US support for the electronic music community. Like the article states, non profits like that German museum are not as much of a thing here. It should be, and I can think of other people than the mayor of Frankfurt to direct your angry DMs to, to make things better.
- JPKab 4y ago
  Agreed. A typical New Yorker attempt at maximizing controversy by framing a German city celebrating it's own techno pioneers as "stealing credit" for techno from Detroit. As a guy who got into electronic music in the mid 90s and has seen the likes of Derrick May/Juan Atkins/Richie Hawtin live on multiple occasions, I really hate this attempt to try to turn every music genre into another "Elvis stole it" narrative. One of the most amazing things about the US techno/rave scene was how incredibly racially inclusive it always was, primarily because it was so dominated by gay Americans of all races who found that they faced aggressive bigotry from all skin colors. Hell, the Detroit techno scene really kicked off in the clubs that catered to Detroit's black middle class in the burbs, because the inner city Detroit black clubs were filled with aggressively, violently homophobic dudes looking for an excuse to beat people up. I have fond memories of the absolute color-blindness of clubs in DC (Buzz/Nation) and Baltimore and yes, Detroit too. Nobody who lived through this scene would think that the Frankfurt museum is coming at the expense of the Belleville crew, ever. Journalists love making things about racism. It's an immediate click magnet, but it's just gross to see something that was so beautiful cast in an inaccurate light by some journalist who was indoctrinated into a race obsessed, univariate model of human social interactions by a university professor.
  - jjulius 4y ago
fsckboy 4y ago
I was curious about the Belleville Three (who have no relationship to the Triplets of Belleville) because I wasn't really aware of them. the wikipedia article on the Belleville Three says the "first wave of Detroit techno" was some of the future members meeting and forming Cybotron, releasing Alleys of Your Mind in 1981 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMHNhJJnve4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMHNhJJnve4 to me this is quite clearly Kraftwerk inspired, and Kraftwerk had been going for about 10 years at that point. 1981 puts them after Devo had been around awhile, and Talking Heads and B-52s, which were more pop but featured many of these sounds, and contemporaneous with Depeche Mode, Eurythmics, and Yaz/Yazoo. Two years later Cybotron released Clear which is Kraftwerk blended with more of a funk sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3QHj7lai9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3QHj7lai9I I'm not trying to assign/give/take credit, just saying here's what they sounded like and who else sounded similar to me. Zappa and P Funk are generally noted as having explored these sounds early on, but I don't enjoy their stuff so much so I don't listen to it much. This comment is a bit of "you might try listening to this" if you're interested. I don't remember when we all started saying techno, it was definitely in full swing in the 90's, I think it was the 80's but gotta admit, I dunno.
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  I always figure what makes house and techno different from earlier electronic music and contemporaneous synthpop is more contextual than musical. House and techno tended to be made by individuals, not by bands. It was put together by people who started with synthesizers, and then stopped with synthesizers. There was no attempt to even fake that there was some live drummer or live keyboard player as part of the "performance". In the case of house (perhaps less so with techno), the goal was to get your tracks played by DJs who were mixing them up with other tracks played at local nightclubs, it was not to end up on Top of the Pops. I think this difference in motivation matters, because it explains better how house and techno evolved into what they are today. Of course, all genres are arbitrary and there continues to be lots of cross-pollination between electronic music that is mainstream/popular and the stuff people are just throwing together in their bedrooms for their mates online or for the local party scene.
  - 4y ago
alisonatwork 4y ago
This is an interesting enough article, but it has been written dozens - if not hundreds - of times since the mid-90s. Everybody seriously into electronic music knows the impact of the Belleville Three. The history has already been written, drawing a line from disco, funk and early synth noodling of the 70s through the club scenes in NYC and Chicago, to the bedrooms of Detroit, and back over the Atlantic to London, Ibiza, Manchester and eventually Berlin. There are perhaps people who have a legitimate case to be made that they have been left out of the history. I remember one DJ from Chicago (Leonard "Remix" Rroy) who wasn't part of the Warehouse clique and spent years telling everyone who listened that he did at least as much to pioneer house music in the city as Frankie Knuckles. But The Belleville Three and Underground Resistance are not that. I was hoping this article would reveal more untold stories like that one, not the same mythology that's already been around for almost three decades at this point.
dboreham 4y ago
I can't read the article because paywalled, but having lived through those decades the German stuff definitely came first.
- ilikehurdles 4y ago
  You’re not missing anything.
boredemployee 4y ago
I always get confused with these things of "who did it first"? The cats from Detroit were certainly influenced by Kraftwerk. People from Detroit always accuse white Europeans of cultural appropriation. But you don't see them pointing fingers at themselves when they go to countries where the dollar is worth a lot of money, buy all the local records and take them home to sample and make hip-hop or house music and with that make a lot of money. For example, an underground house music duo called "Detroit Swindle" changed their stage name under pressure from Detroit artists. A famous German DJ, who used the name "Motor City Drum Ensemble," also felt pressured and no longer uses that name, but he had an "odd" argument: he's from Stuttgart, also known as a "Motor City" But people from Detroit didn't buy that argument. Anyway, all of this is egoistic and elitist nonsense from either side you look at it. If you look closely, couldn't the inventor of drum machines claim to be the inventor of techno, then? What about the inventor of TB303?
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  I have started to think egoistic and elitist nonsense is part of techno's intangible cultural heritage.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  Looped music came from Robert Fripp which came from Steven Reich which came from Daphne Orem which came from Edwin Votey which came from ... But if you think about it, who was the first to serve the new music to a large audience and have it documented and then commoditize it is where i think the notion of "first" really comes from. It's like trying define the exact day that Boomers became Gen-X in the US: broad strokes make sense, but resolution is only so fine.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    Fripp got it from Eno, when they did the Pussyfooting album together in the very early 70s.
    - ChancyChance 4y ago
chinabison 4y ago
The New Yorker didn't even get the caption right. From L-R it's Kevin Saunderson (at the mixing board), Juan Atkins, Derrick May.
- just_steve_h 4y ago
  [flagged]
- karaokeyoga 4y ago
  Looks like it's right, then. The caption is listing them left-to-right. Kevin Saunderson is in the middle.
seabird 4y ago
This article is very strange. It's written under the pretense that these musicians aren't recognized for their contributions to the music that came after the German origins of techno when they absolutely are; you would struggle to find _anybody_ who listens to house music beyond top 40 radio hits disputing the contributions of black, female, queer, etc. artists. Many (me included) would argue that those demographics did most of the legwork developing modern EDM (that did/will have any commercial success, at least) and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The people this article claimed were snubbed had this to say: >According to Banks, Kraftwerk was in the audience that night at Tresor. He spotted the band members and rushed to tell Jeff Mills, who didn’t believe him until he saw Ralf Hütter and Florian Schneider in the back of the room. Banks said that it was like seeing living legends, the guys who provided the blueprints for their own souped-up sound. He said that Hütter and Schneider were just grateful to be recognized by the next generation of techno whiz kids. “We talked for a second in that narrow, dingy stairwell going to the surface,” Banks said, before switching to a comically bad German accent. “ ‘Thank you for remembering us,’ they said.”
- Animats 4y ago
  First recorded Kraftwerk performance, 1970.[1] That sounds like modern techno. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWUiLJnEYJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWUiLJnEYJI
  - antupis 4y ago
    The video is fantastic and it demonstrates how some people can be hesitant or uncertain when encountering true innovation. Only a small percentage of the audience, about 10-20%, seems to fully comprehend the concept, while the rest appear puzzled or confused.
  - atchoo 4y ago
    Nonsense, that is clearly Acid House :) 2:30 onwards they have a liquid proto-TB-303-ish squelchy melody in there. Thanks for this. Never heard it before and it's a great track that's very danceable unlike lots of other esoteric/experimental music that pursue atonal/arhythmic horrors. I love the garage-punk/skiffle rawness compared to electronic perfection.
bag_boy 4y ago
Techno enthusiasts/experts: I explored a bit of the Detroit history last year but can’t remember the following: Did any links exist between Motown and techno? Did techno find its place thanks to the remnants of Motown’s existence?
- smackeyacky 4y ago
  I think the BBC documentary "Dancing in the street" covered some of this in the last two episodes. As always, history is written by the victors but the origins of "Planet Rock" are covered there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_%26_Roll_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_%26_Roll_(TV_series)
- jjulius 4y ago
  Of the many separate lines that ultimately led to Techno (arguably, Detroit Techno), one of them is absolutely Motown. The thread pretty solidly moves from Motown towards House, which came from Chicago. Chicago had a lot of people with strong connections to Detroit, and there's a good number of people who moved from House over to (Detroit) Techno when it was in it's infancy. Chez Damier would be one of them. He cut his chops in Chicago with House music before moving to Detroit and being one of the founders of The Music Institute, one of the first Detroit Techno clubs (and mentioned in the New Yorker piece). Aside: He's also one of the humblest people in the scene, and still one of the best DJs I've seen. Caught him a few weeks back and I cut a serious rug for 3+ hours. 24 hours later you could still ring sweat out of my shirt. Edit: I'd argue that (and as this whole thread demonstrates, a lot of history around this can't really be pinned down, so a lot of it is just personal opinion) you wouldn't have House and Techno if you didn't have Motown, followed by Disco.
  - atchoo 4y ago
    Hmm, I'm not convinced. I think it's a bit of wishful thinking to connect Motown just because of the geography. I'm not seeing much specific connection between the artists, performers, labels etc. I don't think you listen to Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes etc. and say to yourself "This is the direct parent of Techno!". The label itself had moved to LA in the 60s. I think the Motown style had passed on by then to Disco which had also passed into High NRG / Italdisco when House/Techno started rising. The early House singers were coming from Church/Gospel like they did for Motown so in some ways they are also siblings with a shared parent. That isn't to say that those Motown artists weren't influential at all, quite the opposite. I love how the great musicians in multiple genres, Rock/Pop/EDM, are in total awe of them. They have global influence. I just haven't seen a unique connection for Detroit/Chicago because of the geography.
jrm4 4y ago
I kinda want to stir the pot on this when it comes to Jungle and Drum and Bass. I feel like rarely see anyone claiming its roots in Miami Bass, but it seems obvious to me, e.g. tracks like "I wanna rock" by Luke and more to the point, this original version of "Wiggle wiggle?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW1aK1SC4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW1aK1SC4g
- whstl 4y ago
  This is 1992? I believe by the time of this tune, the double-speed Amen Break was already popular thanks to late Acid House and Breakbeat Hardcore. Even Prodigy had a tune with this beat around then (Charly I think). This is THE sound of 1992, even rock bands had this going on instead of normal drums... This is often considered the first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl-PrF5yNNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl-PrF5yNNY Interestingly, the "Bass" of Drum n' Bass, more specificaly the "Reese Bass" sound, was invented by Kevin Saunderson of the Belleville Three. In early DnB, this is as iconic as the drums. In late-90s DnB this was even more prominent than the Amen Break, IMO.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  I think more dancehall reggae, specifically late 80s/early 90s "digital dancehall". Try checking the basslines on stuff like supa cat's album "don dada" [1] and tell me it's not pretty similar to early jungle you hear in artists from the jamaican diaspora such as dillinja [2]. Jungle came out of what was called hardcore in the early 90s and both of those genres are having quite a fun revival lately. People are going to the lengths of busting out old amigas to make this on and play live even. Oh there's a really good BBC documentary about this, I remember me and some friends watched it years ago and we were laughing about how they made dillinja dress like a total dork ass for the telly, at that point he was still living with his parents apparently haha. Cool shots of his DAW setup with an Atari ST running what looks like early cubase [3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bEgAVxtoHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bEgAVxtoHI [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7sDtA_zFWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7sDtA_zFWA [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyCyTo3mt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyCyTo3mt4
- evanelias 4y ago
oxfeed65261 4y ago
https://archive.ph/84I53 https://archive.ph/84I53
jamal-kumar 4y ago
Techno was started in Detroit by black people and there's a great amount of evidence for this [1] House the same I believe in Chicago, love that acid. Note the audience is mostly black [2] These people are having way more fun than any of us will ever hope to I think what needs to be pointed out more than anything is that back in these times the scene around electronic music was a radical racial integrator. You had skinheads, rastas, and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other instead of fighting. I mean I think we all know how that worked (It involved a certain lubricant) but I still think that people are missing the point with this shit these days so hard [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aUAqboAvQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aUAqboAvQM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qnIcb7sPLg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qnIcb7sPLg
- poisonarena 4y ago
  how are two very fun clips on youtube proof of this? It just proves they liked it.
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    Do I really need to start busting out the clips with 1986 timestamps on them?
    - poisonarena 4y ago
      you will need ones from the 70s to prove anything
      - jamal-kumar 4y ago
        Are we really getting into the roots of all music on that level because we could get pretty deep
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > I think what needs to be pointed out more than anything is that back in these times the scene around electronic music was a radical racial integrator. You had skinheads, rastas, and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other instead of fighting. If techno was started in detroit, then in terms of origin stories, the above quote is completely disconnected. Yes, you had skinheads, rastas and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other, but that in the England, in the 90s, mostly after ecstasy arrived.
8bitsrule 4y ago
Arguing over who was first leads where? No question what was happening in the midwest US (different scenes in Chi and Detroit) was a lot different from Germany. Once US DJ's started going over there (by invitation before long), that was important. But also question, what was going on in the Zodiak Free Arts Lab (10 years earlier) was also differently big (more artsy for one). This might be interesting: When Detroit Techno Came to the UK https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/05/when-detroit-techno-came-to-the-uk https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/05/when-detroit-t... "The Roots of Techno: Detroit’s Club Scene 1973–1985" https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/07/roots-of-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/07/roots-of-techn... When Techno Was House https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-detroit-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-... More like these here: https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/detroit https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/detroit
squarefoot 4y ago
Not quite techno, but worth mentioning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavwtJxmqJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavwtJxmqJI Pretty sure I heard it also sampled in a track from some years ago.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Side note: And seemingly relevant in the context of startups... The Rolland drum machines as designed / intended were a failure. It wasn't until they were "repurposed" making "dance music" did they find a nichec/ market. But those machines were not originally intended to make "dance music". Thank God for Rolland's willingness to fail.
vegancap 4y ago
This issue seems to stem from the misuses of the term 'techno'. My understanding is that Detroit was house music. I feel like they're using the term 'techno' as an all encompassing term for electronic music. Detroit House and German Techno sound nothing alike and have different influences (and some shared influences if you go back far enough). They both stemmed from Disco in the likes of Summer's etc, but diverged in very different directions, House retaining more of the Disco musical elements, Techno retaining more of the synthesised and electronica sounds. I could be totally wrong here, but Techno is more than just loops 4x4 beats, and so is House, so it's kind of apples and oranges. I'd associated Techno with Germany and House with America, I'm not sure there's a valid dispute here?
- whitemary 4y ago
  I pretty much agree with you, but I do think the ostensible conflict has been important for culture-keeping purposes in various scenes. The particular character of music genres shifts over time because the primary function of genres is not consistency but rather a superficial purity that temporarily preserves the scenes in which culture is incubated.
  - vegancap 4y ago
    That's a good point, I realised as I was writing my original comment that I'm probably using very recent definitions of those terms. Historically, 'techno' probably was a more all encompassing term, so it's easy for me to discount all of the historical disagreements based on the current definitions. So, I'm sort of over-simplifying it just by using todays definitions
- whstl 4y ago
  "My understanding is that Detroit was house music" There definitely was a lot of overlap: https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-detroit-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-...
1001101 4y ago
Great book about the rise of the Berlin techno scene called Der Klang Der Familie. In my read of that, the techno of Berlin and Detroit arose organically, simultaneously, and they sort of found each other serendipitously, and were connected through clubs like Tresor and labels like Interfisch. The world wasn't as connected in the late 80's early 90's as it is today, and particularly for the sorts of people that were squatting in abandoned structures in East Berlin.
johnea 4y ago
The... "Battle"? Really? The War on House!
rfwhyte 4y ago
Funny how all the "Black and queer" artist who felt overlooked at the opening of the Berlin Techno Museum in Berlin, Germany, didn't have much to say when "Exhibit 3000" the Detroit Techno Museum in Detroit, USA overlooked German artists completely. https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit-guides/inside-detroits-secret-techno-museum-2345106 https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit-guides/inside-detroits-se...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

126 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

What Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music[0] has to say on Electro: > There are whole libraries full of books about how white music culture is just a safe and boring pastiche of black music culture. From Jazz to Blues to Rock n Roll to Funk and to a lesser extent even Hip Hop, white America's greatest musical innovations have all been sheepishly stolen from the black man, often without any credit or compensation. > Rarely is it mentioned that cultural appropriation works both ways, that on a select few occasions the black man has also stolen -- and expanded upon -- the innovations of square-ass stuffy-headed white dorks. Electro is one of those genres. And those square-ass stuffy-headed white dorks were Kraftwerk. (he also asks important questions like "If Bambaataa is the focal point for the immortalization of Kraftwerk and the existence of Electro, would we be having this discussion if he sampled YMO instead?") and on Techno: > Affluent middle class black youth living in the peaceful Detroit suburb of Belleville Michigan in the late 70s, raised by the scions of the automative industry. They had money to spend and parties to attend but rather than identify with the harsh street sounds of Rap coming out of New York, they looked instead toward mainland Europe to emulate the latest trends in fashion and music. [...] > Detroit Techno was never more than a regional genre and it never blew up like House, Garage or Rap. That is, until 1988 when this generic mean-nothing uneventful compilation [Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit] made it overseas [...] If they called it Poopyfart, today we would all be waxing nostalgic about the oldskool Detroit Poopyfart sound of the Belleville Trio. > The Detroit Techno dudes who grew up idolizing European synthesizer music were now idolized in Europe. This spawned a number of Techno subgenres across the ocean, all of them interesting for various reasons that have nothing to do with Detroit. [...] But it was the word 'Techno' that blew up and not the actual sound, and for this reason Detroit felt somewhat ashamed to associate their city with marked-up prancing goofball euroshite [...] > With time comes restitution. Detroit took the word back with a big-ass music festival, an exhibit in the Detroit Historical Museum (right beside the Motown exhibit) [...] Things have come full circle. Techno is once again the embodiment of Detroit. [0]: https://music.ishkur.com/ https://music.ishkur.com/

projectazorian 4y ago
FYI: Ishkur’s guide was a great resource in the 90s when it went well beyond anything else available on the internet at the time, but it shouldn’t be taken as anything approaching canonical. It’s not clear what his qualifications are to pontificate aside from that he was around in Detroit when some of this was going on, and he was the first to make a website about it.

twic 4y ago

This is Charanjit Singh erasure.

throwaway743 4y ago

I mean yeah Detroit's scene is significant in a historical context, but if we're talking electronic music, Kraftwerk is definitely up there as pioneers.

blacksmith_tb 4y ago
I think it's mostly semantics, it seems pretty axiomatic to me that Detroit Techno is from Detroit... but people like to have a simple label to slap on all EDM, and tend to reach for 'techno' which is vague at best. Short documentary on UR on YT - https://youtu.be/fe7sC4SAvc0 https://youtu.be/fe7sC4SAvc0
- _9hey 4y ago
  > people ... tend to reach for 'techno' which is vague at best Exactly this. Journalism is such a joke these days - their agenda of sowing discord is blatant. Those familiar with the history of techno wouldn't call it a battle at all. It was about P.L.U.R. It wasn't pretentious and divisive like this generation.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >Those familiar with the history of techno wouldn't call it a battle at all. It was about P.L.U.R. It wasn't pretentious and divisive like this generation. I feel like a broken record in this thread so maybe I should just move on, but comments like these genuinely confuse me. This has been a debate within the scene going back decades, and has always been a point of contention for many of the people who were in the Detroit scene during it's inception. They've always claimed it as theirs and have often taken umbrage or scoffed when people have claimed it's European in origin. It was about unity, yes, but as the scene grew in the late 80's/early 90's, so did the battle over it's origins.
    - _9hey 4y ago
      Making any claim about its inception is misguided, because it is not a single thing. One could argue that Robert Moog and Don Buchla invented techno in the 60s. It probably goes back further. It’s all standing on the shoulders of giants.

tetrisgm 4y ago

I like the New Yorker. I love the works of Juan Atkins and Derrick May. "The situation escalated when Peter Feldmann, then the mayor of Frankfurt, sent an invitation for momem’s opening party welcoming guests “in the middle of Frankfurt, where techno has its origin.” The accumulated snubs set off a conflagration in the fiercely protective techno community". This is silly. Of course the mayor of Frankfurt is gonna promote his shiny new museum, and probably doesn't know a ton about the Detroit scene. That's not a reason to frame this as whitewashed, or blame the German effort to highlight their works. What we need is more US support for the electronic music community. Like the article states, non profits like that German museum are not as much of a thing here. It should be, and I can think of other people than the mayor of Frankfurt to direct your angry DMs to, to make things better.

JPKab 4y ago
Agreed. A typical New Yorker attempt at maximizing controversy by framing a German city celebrating it's own techno pioneers as "stealing credit" for techno from Detroit. As a guy who got into electronic music in the mid 90s and has seen the likes of Derrick May/Juan Atkins/Richie Hawtin live on multiple occasions, I really hate this attempt to try to turn every music genre into another "Elvis stole it" narrative. One of the most amazing things about the US techno/rave scene was how incredibly racially inclusive it always was, primarily because it was so dominated by gay Americans of all races who found that they faced aggressive bigotry from all skin colors. Hell, the Detroit techno scene really kicked off in the clubs that catered to Detroit's black middle class in the burbs, because the inner city Detroit black clubs were filled with aggressively, violently homophobic dudes looking for an excuse to beat people up. I have fond memories of the absolute color-blindness of clubs in DC (Buzz/Nation) and Baltimore and yes, Detroit too. Nobody who lived through this scene would think that the Frankfurt museum is coming at the expense of the Belleville crew, ever. Journalists love making things about racism. It's an immediate click magnet, but it's just gross to see something that was so beautiful cast in an inaccurate light by some journalist who was indoctrinated into a race obsessed, univariate model of human social interactions by a university professor.
- jjulius 4y ago

fsckboy 4y ago

I was curious about the Belleville Three (who have no relationship to the Triplets of Belleville) because I wasn't really aware of them. the wikipedia article on the Belleville Three says the "first wave of Detroit techno" was some of the future members meeting and forming Cybotron, releasing Alleys of Your Mind in 1981 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMHNhJJnve4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMHNhJJnve4 to me this is quite clearly Kraftwerk inspired, and Kraftwerk had been going for about 10 years at that point. 1981 puts them after Devo had been around awhile, and Talking Heads and B-52s, which were more pop but featured many of these sounds, and contemporaneous with Depeche Mode, Eurythmics, and Yaz/Yazoo. Two years later Cybotron released Clear which is Kraftwerk blended with more of a funk sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3QHj7lai9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3QHj7lai9I I'm not trying to assign/give/take credit, just saying here's what they sounded like and who else sounded similar to me. Zappa and P Funk are generally noted as having explored these sounds early on, but I don't enjoy their stuff so much so I don't listen to it much. This comment is a bit of "you might try listening to this" if you're interested. I don't remember when we all started saying techno, it was definitely in full swing in the 90's, I think it was the 80's but gotta admit, I dunno.

alisonatwork 4y ago
I always figure what makes house and techno different from earlier electronic music and contemporaneous synthpop is more contextual than musical. House and techno tended to be made by individuals, not by bands. It was put together by people who started with synthesizers, and then stopped with synthesizers. There was no attempt to even fake that there was some live drummer or live keyboard player as part of the "performance". In the case of house (perhaps less so with techno), the goal was to get your tracks played by DJs who were mixing them up with other tracks played at local nightclubs, it was not to end up on Top of the Pops. I think this difference in motivation matters, because it explains better how house and techno evolved into what they are today. Of course, all genres are arbitrary and there continues to be lots of cross-pollination between electronic music that is mainstream/popular and the stuff people are just throwing together in their bedrooms for their mates online or for the local party scene.
- 4y ago

alisonatwork 4y ago

This is an interesting enough article, but it has been written dozens - if not hundreds - of times since the mid-90s. Everybody seriously into electronic music knows the impact of the Belleville Three. The history has already been written, drawing a line from disco, funk and early synth noodling of the 70s through the club scenes in NYC and Chicago, to the bedrooms of Detroit, and back over the Atlantic to London, Ibiza, Manchester and eventually Berlin. There are perhaps people who have a legitimate case to be made that they have been left out of the history. I remember one DJ from Chicago (Leonard "Remix" Rroy) who wasn't part of the Warehouse clique and spent years telling everyone who listened that he did at least as much to pioneer house music in the city as Frankie Knuckles. But The Belleville Three and Underground Resistance are not that. I was hoping this article would reveal more untold stories like that one, not the same mythology that's already been around for almost three decades at this point.

dboreham 4y ago

I can't read the article because paywalled, but having lived through those decades the German stuff definitely came first.

ilikehurdles 4y ago
You’re not missing anything.

boredemployee 4y ago

I always get confused with these things of "who did it first"? The cats from Detroit were certainly influenced by Kraftwerk. People from Detroit always accuse white Europeans of cultural appropriation. But you don't see them pointing fingers at themselves when they go to countries where the dollar is worth a lot of money, buy all the local records and take them home to sample and make hip-hop or house music and with that make a lot of money. For example, an underground house music duo called "Detroit Swindle" changed their stage name under pressure from Detroit artists. A famous German DJ, who used the name "Motor City Drum Ensemble," also felt pressured and no longer uses that name, but he had an "odd" argument: he's from Stuttgart, also known as a "Motor City" But people from Detroit didn't buy that argument. Anyway, all of this is egoistic and elitist nonsense from either side you look at it. If you look closely, couldn't the inventor of drum machines claim to be the inventor of techno, then? What about the inventor of TB303?

alisonatwork 4y ago
I have started to think egoistic and elitist nonsense is part of techno's intangible cultural heritage.
ChancyChance 4y ago
Looped music came from Robert Fripp which came from Steven Reich which came from Daphne Orem which came from Edwin Votey which came from ... But if you think about it, who was the first to serve the new music to a large audience and have it documented and then commoditize it is where i think the notion of "first" really comes from. It's like trying define the exact day that Boomers became Gen-X in the US: broad strokes make sense, but resolution is only so fine.
- TylerE 4y ago
  Fripp got it from Eno, when they did the Pussyfooting album together in the very early 70s.
  - ChancyChance 4y ago

chinabison 4y ago

The New Yorker didn't even get the caption right. From L-R it's Kevin Saunderson (at the mixing board), Juan Atkins, Derrick May.

just_steve_h 4y ago
[flagged]
karaokeyoga 4y ago
Looks like it's right, then. The caption is listing them left-to-right. Kevin Saunderson is in the middle.

seabird 4y ago

This article is very strange. It's written under the pretense that these musicians aren't recognized for their contributions to the music that came after the German origins of techno when they absolutely are; you would struggle to find _anybody_ who listens to house music beyond top 40 radio hits disputing the contributions of black, female, queer, etc. artists. Many (me included) would argue that those demographics did most of the legwork developing modern EDM (that did/will have any commercial success, at least) and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The people this article claimed were snubbed had this to say: >According to Banks, Kraftwerk was in the audience that night at Tresor. He spotted the band members and rushed to tell Jeff Mills, who didn’t believe him until he saw Ralf Hütter and Florian Schneider in the back of the room. Banks said that it was like seeing living legends, the guys who provided the blueprints for their own souped-up sound. He said that Hütter and Schneider were just grateful to be recognized by the next generation of techno whiz kids. “We talked for a second in that narrow, dingy stairwell going to the surface,” Banks said, before switching to a comically bad German accent. “ ‘Thank you for remembering us,’ they said.”

Animats 4y ago
First recorded Kraftwerk performance, 1970.[1] That sounds like modern techno. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWUiLJnEYJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWUiLJnEYJI
- antupis 4y ago
  The video is fantastic and it demonstrates how some people can be hesitant or uncertain when encountering true innovation. Only a small percentage of the audience, about 10-20%, seems to fully comprehend the concept, while the rest appear puzzled or confused.
- atchoo 4y ago
  Nonsense, that is clearly Acid House :) 2:30 onwards they have a liquid proto-TB-303-ish squelchy melody in there. Thanks for this. Never heard it before and it's a great track that's very danceable unlike lots of other esoteric/experimental music that pursue atonal/arhythmic horrors. I love the garage-punk/skiffle rawness compared to electronic perfection.

bag_boy 4y ago

Techno enthusiasts/experts: I explored a bit of the Detroit history last year but can’t remember the following: Did any links exist between Motown and techno? Did techno find its place thanks to the remnants of Motown’s existence?

smackeyacky 4y ago
I think the BBC documentary "Dancing in the street" covered some of this in the last two episodes. As always, history is written by the victors but the origins of "Planet Rock" are covered there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_%26_Roll_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_%26_Roll_(TV_series)
jjulius 4y ago
Of the many separate lines that ultimately led to Techno (arguably, Detroit Techno), one of them is absolutely Motown. The thread pretty solidly moves from Motown towards House, which came from Chicago. Chicago had a lot of people with strong connections to Detroit, and there's a good number of people who moved from House over to (Detroit) Techno when it was in it's infancy. Chez Damier would be one of them. He cut his chops in Chicago with House music before moving to Detroit and being one of the founders of The Music Institute, one of the first Detroit Techno clubs (and mentioned in the New Yorker piece). Aside: He's also one of the humblest people in the scene, and still one of the best DJs I've seen. Caught him a few weeks back and I cut a serious rug for 3+ hours. 24 hours later you could still ring sweat out of my shirt. Edit: I'd argue that (and as this whole thread demonstrates, a lot of history around this can't really be pinned down, so a lot of it is just personal opinion) you wouldn't have House and Techno if you didn't have Motown, followed by Disco.
- atchoo 4y ago
  Hmm, I'm not convinced. I think it's a bit of wishful thinking to connect Motown just because of the geography. I'm not seeing much specific connection between the artists, performers, labels etc. I don't think you listen to Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes etc. and say to yourself "This is the direct parent of Techno!". The label itself had moved to LA in the 60s. I think the Motown style had passed on by then to Disco which had also passed into High NRG / Italdisco when House/Techno started rising. The early House singers were coming from Church/Gospel like they did for Motown so in some ways they are also siblings with a shared parent. That isn't to say that those Motown artists weren't influential at all, quite the opposite. I love how the great musicians in multiple genres, Rock/Pop/EDM, are in total awe of them. They have global influence. I just haven't seen a unique connection for Detroit/Chicago because of the geography.

jrm4 4y ago

I kinda want to stir the pot on this when it comes to Jungle and Drum and Bass. I feel like rarely see anyone claiming its roots in Miami Bass, but it seems obvious to me, e.g. tracks like "I wanna rock" by Luke and more to the point, this original version of "Wiggle wiggle?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW1aK1SC4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwW1aK1SC4g

whstl 4y ago
This is 1992? I believe by the time of this tune, the double-speed Amen Break was already popular thanks to late Acid House and Breakbeat Hardcore. Even Prodigy had a tune with this beat around then (Charly I think). This is THE sound of 1992, even rock bands had this going on instead of normal drums... This is often considered the first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl-PrF5yNNY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl-PrF5yNNY Interestingly, the "Bass" of Drum n' Bass, more specificaly the "Reese Bass" sound, was invented by Kevin Saunderson of the Belleville Three. In early DnB, this is as iconic as the drums. In late-90s DnB this was even more prominent than the Amen Break, IMO.
jamal-kumar 4y ago
I think more dancehall reggae, specifically late 80s/early 90s "digital dancehall". Try checking the basslines on stuff like supa cat's album "don dada" [1] and tell me it's not pretty similar to early jungle you hear in artists from the jamaican diaspora such as dillinja [2]. Jungle came out of what was called hardcore in the early 90s and both of those genres are having quite a fun revival lately. People are going to the lengths of busting out old amigas to make this on and play live even. Oh there's a really good BBC documentary about this, I remember me and some friends watched it years ago and we were laughing about how they made dillinja dress like a total dork ass for the telly, at that point he was still living with his parents apparently haha. Cool shots of his DAW setup with an Atari ST running what looks like early cubase [3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bEgAVxtoHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bEgAVxtoHI [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7sDtA_zFWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7sDtA_zFWA [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyCyTo3mt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQyCyTo3mt4
evanelias 4y ago

oxfeed65261 4y ago

https://archive.ph/84I53 https://archive.ph/84I53

jamal-kumar 4y ago

Techno was started in Detroit by black people and there's a great amount of evidence for this [1] House the same I believe in Chicago, love that acid. Note the audience is mostly black [2] These people are having way more fun than any of us will ever hope to I think what needs to be pointed out more than anything is that back in these times the scene around electronic music was a radical racial integrator. You had skinheads, rastas, and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other instead of fighting. I mean I think we all know how that worked (It involved a certain lubricant) but I still think that people are missing the point with this shit these days so hard [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aUAqboAvQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aUAqboAvQM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qnIcb7sPLg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qnIcb7sPLg

poisonarena 4y ago
how are two very fun clips on youtube proof of this? It just proves they liked it.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  Do I really need to start busting out the clips with 1986 timestamps on them?
  - poisonarena 4y ago
    you will need ones from the 70s to prove anything
    - jamal-kumar 4y ago
      Are we really getting into the roots of all music on that level because we could get pretty deep
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
> I think what needs to be pointed out more than anything is that back in these times the scene around electronic music was a radical racial integrator. You had skinheads, rastas, and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other instead of fighting. If techno was started in detroit, then in terms of origin stories, the above quote is completely disconnected. Yes, you had skinheads, rastas and football hooligan ultras all partying with each other, but that in the England, in the 90s, mostly after ecstasy arrived.

8bitsrule 4y ago

Arguing over who was first leads where? No question what was happening in the midwest US (different scenes in Chi and Detroit) was a lot different from Germany. Once US DJ's started going over there (by invitation before long), that was important. But also question, what was going on in the Zodiak Free Arts Lab (10 years earlier) was also differently big (more artsy for one). This might be interesting: When Detroit Techno Came to the UK https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/05/when-detroit-techno-came-to-the-uk https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/05/when-detroit-t... "The Roots of Techno: Detroit’s Club Scene 1973–1985" https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/07/roots-of-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/07/roots-of-techn... When Techno Was House https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-detroit-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-... More like these here: https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/detroit https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/detroit

squarefoot 4y ago

Not quite techno, but worth mentioning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavwtJxmqJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavwtJxmqJI Pretty sure I heard it also sampled in a track from some years ago.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

Side note: And seemingly relevant in the context of startups... The Rolland drum machines as designed / intended were a failure. It wasn't until they were "repurposed" making "dance music" did they find a nichec/ market. But those machines were not originally intended to make "dance music". Thank God for Rolland's willingness to fail.

vegancap 4y ago

This issue seems to stem from the misuses of the term 'techno'. My understanding is that Detroit was house music. I feel like they're using the term 'techno' as an all encompassing term for electronic music. Detroit House and German Techno sound nothing alike and have different influences (and some shared influences if you go back far enough). They both stemmed from Disco in the likes of Summer's etc, but diverged in very different directions, House retaining more of the Disco musical elements, Techno retaining more of the synthesised and electronica sounds. I could be totally wrong here, but Techno is more than just loops 4x4 beats, and so is House, so it's kind of apples and oranges. I'd associated Techno with Germany and House with America, I'm not sure there's a valid dispute here?

whitemary 4y ago
I pretty much agree with you, but I do think the ostensible conflict has been important for culture-keeping purposes in various scenes. The particular character of music genres shifts over time because the primary function of genres is not consistency but rather a superficial purity that temporarily preserves the scenes in which culture is incubated.
- vegancap 4y ago
  That's a good point, I realised as I was writing my original comment that I'm probably using very recent definitions of those terms. Historically, 'techno' probably was a more all encompassing term, so it's easy for me to discount all of the historical disagreements based on the current definitions. So, I'm sort of over-simplifying it just by using todays definitions
whstl 4y ago
"My understanding is that Detroit was house music" There definitely was a lot of overlap: https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-detroit-techno-feature https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2017/08/chicago-house-...

1001101 4y ago

Great book about the rise of the Berlin techno scene called Der Klang Der Familie. In my read of that, the techno of Berlin and Detroit arose organically, simultaneously, and they sort of found each other serendipitously, and were connected through clubs like Tresor and labels like Interfisch. The world wasn't as connected in the late 80's early 90's as it is today, and particularly for the sorts of people that were squatting in abandoned structures in East Berlin.

johnea 4y ago

The... "Battle"? Really? The War on House!

rfwhyte 4y ago

Funny how all the "Black and queer" artist who felt overlooked at the opening of the Berlin Techno Museum in Berlin, Germany, didn't have much to say when "Exhibit 3000" the Detroit Techno Museum in Detroit, USA overlooked German artists completely. https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit-guides/inside-detroits-secret-techno-museum-2345106 https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit-guides/inside-detroits-se...

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