5 ms·

Swearing Is Dumb

10 points by Curiositry 4y ago

Paul-Craft 4y ago
This essay is remarkably content-free, with the exception of this: > So, until more maledictology research is conducted, all we have is the irrefutable logic of random bloggers on the internet:
jschveibinz 4y ago
There are two sides to everything. Scientists say that swearing is a sign of intelligence: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-wellness/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-well...
- Curiositry 4y ago
  There certainly are. I address the study referred to by the CNN article you linked in the section[1] on the research on swearing: "The vocabulary study (Jay and Jay, 2015) indicates that those who can list the most swear words can also list the most non-swear words … but knowing lots of swear words is separate from how much someone uses swear words. The correlation isn’t surprising. Anyone who is well-read is bound to have run across just about every offensive word in common use, and a number of archaic ones besides. The study insinuates that people who know lots of swear words are verbally fluent. But I think what’s actually happening is that you can’t become verbally fluent without learning lots of swear words." The scientists say swearing is a sign of intelligence, but the science itself doesn’t necessarily. I also self-administered the CWAT test from that study, just for fun, as described in the Citizen Science Report section. [1]: https://www.autodidacts.io/swearing-is-dumb/#theresearchonswearing https://www.autodidacts.io/swearing-is-dumb/#theresearchonsw...
xmonkee 4y ago
Social dynamics are so much more complex than this childish analysis. Misses the most important reason for swearing completely: to fine-tune the tone of the conversation. And there’s nothing special about swearing here, all words and gestures can be deployed effectively for this purpose. And there is absolutely no need to avoid swearing between adults, grow the fuck up. I get the feeling this guy doesn’t have too many close friends.
- Curiositry 4y ago
  I agree social dynamics are more complex than this (potentially childish) analysis. Though I mentioned humour and fitting in, you're right that I didn’t really address the use of profanity to build rapport/break down formality/establish intimacy, and adjust the tone of a conversation in other ways. (Some aspects of that were on my list of things to add, but I never got around to it.) > I get the feeling this guy doesn’t have too many close friends. Thankfully, despite this essay & other indications to the contrary, I have a reasonable number of wonderful close friends (I’m sometimes as surprised as you), some of whom swear, and some of whom don't. I sometimes appreciate swearing, and sometimes find it grating. But I find that overuse of swearing usually detracts from a conversation, which is why I wrote up my argument for why there are potentially maybe possibly valid philosophical and pragmatic reasons for adults to consider swearing less.
  - Nevermark 4y ago
    > But I find that overuse of swearing usually detracts from a conversation A reasonable concern. But don’t get carried away. We don’t need under use either! When my kids were young I told then that swear words were not inherently bad, but needed to be used appropriately. And I told them I couldn’t let them use them because they were not ready for that nuance, but also culturally, young children swearing was not a path to youthful success. One day driving two of them through town, my son mentioned that one of his friends said a bad word. I asked him which one, and he said “You know … fuh…!” He got his meaning across, and I was about to so “oh, ok” when his sister blurted out “kuh!” My son looked at her with surprise and admiration, and proceeded to exclaim “fuh” again, followed by his sister in what became an instant chanting game. I had to use my outdoor voice to get them to stop. My son pleaded with me. “We aren’t actually saying it, Dad!” But I told them I couldn’t allow it. He cried! I think he was four. I tried to be serious and empathetic. But no loop holes.
  - xmonkee 4y ago
    I'm sorry about that last quip. Don't know why I said that. Probably reminded me of some people I don't like IRL.
- 4y ago
markeibes 4y ago
Actual "swearing" is dumb. Like swearing by the moon, and the stars, and the sky.
iamerroragent 4y ago
I've found in my experience in in life that those whom comment are others use of swear words are often lacking individuals whom attempt to use their felt'superior language' to demean others. Particularly to demean others of a different cultural background than them.
- Curiositry 4y ago
  This is unfortunately the case, which is why I start the essay with caveat that it hopefully applies to people with my cultural background who swear, and may not apply beyond that.
  - iamerroragent 4y ago
    Hey as long as my culture is superior to yours because mine doesn't liberally use swear words like yours it's all good boy! Obviously I hope you can tell that's thick sarcasm to illustrate a point.
    - Curiositry 4y ago
      Yes, that is problematic :) However, different cultures use swearing very differently (and it seems the attitude that sometimes goes along with swearing in my culture doesn't always go along with swearing in other cultures), and swearing is a very tiny part of a culture, so would have very little effect at that level even if it was as "dumb" in other cultures as I think it is in mine.
      - iamerroragent 4y ago
        I disagree that is has little effect. The way we communicate is a central and essential aspect of us as a species. Even the little nods and the dog whistles matter. A dominate culture policing it's norm of communication onto another because the dominate one believes due to it being the prominent one it is thus superior leads to damaging and loss of cultural diversity and communication and perpetuates societal disunity and segregation. Viewing swearing as "dumb" and thus people who swear are "dumb" is a really easy way to openly okay associating a whole group of people that may swear often as "dumb" or to selectively apply that standard to them. You yourself are perfectly free to choose whatever words you would like to use; I am perfectly free to find language policing and censoring repugnant.
benj111 4y ago
>Note: if you swear and aren’t interested in re-considering the habit, there’s no point in reading this post. It’ll probably just annoy you. So you're only trying to convince those that are already convinced?
- Curiositry 4y ago
  I'm only trying to convince those that are open to the possibility of being convinced.
  - phnofive 4y ago
    Well, your disclaimer seems to be a filter selecting for people who swear and are interested in stopping, so.
ofalkaed 4y ago
The real problem with swearing is that it is ambiguous, it can mean anything and is often combined with other words which are just as ambiguous, it assumes a certain amount of prior knowledge, the same goes for slang in general. I fucking hate that guy. This can mean literal hate or a general dislike or even a complicated form of admiration, knowing what was meant largely depends on knowing the speaker and the context that provides. Sometimes it is spoken in a way which makes it obvious what is meant to anyone but most of the time not. "fucking" becomes a meaningless adjective to a word that is just as meaningless, 99% of the time people use "hate" they mean something else other than literal consuming hatred, that emotion which is so close to love and in many ways indistinguishable. So what was meant? The utility of such words is difficult to deny and a great deal can be conveyed very efficiently with them, the chances of misunderstanding are strong but how many are going to sit through a soliloquy when a well chosen swear word will do? I mean, fuck, we don't go out to the bar for dear Abby, we go there to get shitfaced and forget the complexities of life. There is a time for concision and a time for emotion, they generally do not overlap.
- iamerroragent 4y ago
  "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" - Rhett Butler Cutting and full of emotion.
retrochameleon 4y ago
I feel like this article has an interesting point to illustrate, but it is very long-winded and exhaustive. It is impossible to avoid skimming over parts, as it feels indigestible. While it seems agreeable that we should seek to expand our vocabulary instead of relying on curse words, I really dislike the sense of superiority to those who use curse words. I'm not offended to hear others curse. There are situations where I will be annoyed, yes. But there are so many others in which it can be a perfectly fine expression of one's personality. What is acceptable is not clearly written out, but is determined by one's context: the people you're around, what they express to you, your history, what's happening, the emotional intensity of the situation. It could show that you're in tune with another's emotions. You've trivialized all of these situations by suggesting that everyone should always be worried about offending others nearby, instead of expressing themselves when they need to. While you may be so certain that you've logically concluded you never need to or want to swear, it's distasteful to turn this topic into moral grandstanding and dilutes your message.
- Curiositry 4y ago
  I appreciate your thoughtful comment. The essay got rather bloated trying to address all the possible counter-arguments, the scientific research, and the potential caveats; and despite my efforts to tone down the moral grandstanding, a lot slipped through. I should probably re-write it as a shorter essay with a thousands footnotes, "Why I Don't Swear". > suggesting that everyone should always be worried about offending others nearby, instead of expressing themselves when they need to. Always worrying about it wouldn't be healthy, but to me it seems like a good idea to at least consider the potential negative effects self-expression may have on others, and weight that against the benefits of self-expression.
  - qazpot 4y ago
    > but to me it seems like a good idea to at least consider the potential negative effects self-expression may have on others, and weight that against the benefits of self-expression. There is no end to self censorship.
GinsengJar 4y ago
This essay didn't really get to what I was hoping it would. As someone who swears a lot, I catch myself all the time and apologize. Why? What is the social contract making me do that? That's what wasn't explored. I get that it's a personal essay and not meant to be a deep analysis, though. Either way, I'd still like to have read anything about what people have to say about how they swear, when they swear, and how frequently they swear. More importantly perhaps would be their responses to "why" they swear. These anecdotes are more valuable to me personally.
- gsatic 4y ago
  For deep analysis, look up that strange mysterious thing as yet unexplained, but found in all humans to varying degrees - Inequity Aversion
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
necovek 4y ago
I rarely swear, but I am also never offended by swearing: I find that dumb. It's like being offended by impossible ill wishes ("I'll get you a one way ticket to the dark side of the moon"). I am offended if you are trying to say how I am eg. stupid, whether you use swearwords or not. I am usually more offended if you are attempting to use a "polite" language than if you are just swearing at me: it significates a bigger effort. As such, I don't think swearing itself is dumb: it is language, a way of expressing oneself. While it's true that swearing might offend a certain group of people (you mention older than 85 or religious people, though I'd certainly challenge that it's majority of them that are easily offended), I personally care more about the opinion of people who care about actions and message rather than the form. I am obviously not a politician looking for majority approval. Also, it's nicer if children don't use swearing regularly, because it's only about challenging the authority with them, and not thinking through all the nuances of communication.
phnofive 4y ago
Perhaps the author should read up on code-switching before writing an article about it. This could be reworked as 'Dialects are Dumb' with a little bit of search and replace.
MichaelRo 4y ago
Well I remember a lot of the opposite conclusion: "swearing is good for you". Just Google for it, there's lots of entries. Reading the OP's list, "to fit in", "to stick out" ... this doesn't apply at all to the very common situation of swearing when all alone. I personally swear and curse a lot in the privacy of my home using horrible constructs in a language way more expressive than English in this regard. English has like what? Funk and consarn it? Swearing makes me feel better over situations I've little control otherwise.
htfu 4y ago
Swearing might be dumb if used to express harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know. Somehow essay (at least the parts I could be bothered attempt read) is confused this must be the general case. What's dumb about a "fuck yeah" among friends? What is the actual difference to other general modifiers? "Not as versatile" perhaps. Language use changes with context.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > Swearing might be dumb if used to express harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know. If anyone expresses "harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know", the dumbness does not lie on whether they swear or not while conveying these opinions. You might as well complain about how dumb exclamation marks are.
pdc56 4y ago
He makes a convincing point in favor of swearing in this section: The Motives for Swearing Swearing is a hammer used to drive many nails. Different types are used by different people for different reasons. People swear: In imitation, because those around them swore when they were growing up, and humans learn by mimicry. To fit in among peers (or people they admire) who swear. To stick out in a culture that proscribes swearing; to sound edgy and contemporary, feel like they’re ‘living dangerously’, and experience the thrill of breaking taboos. (A subset of this: people who like to perform and play the clown often combine swearing with overstatement or ridiculousness for comedic shock value.) To blow off steam (especially as a single-word expletive when something goes wrong). To pack an emotional punch and vent feelings about a particular person or thing, either directly at the target of the feelings, or to a third party. To buy time. Swear words can be used as filler (the way people use “um”, “uh”, and “like”), buying extra time while also sounding edgy. By habit, because by now they’ve been swearing for so long it’s become ingrained.
pdc56 4y ago
This is perhaps the only HN post where I can say this and maybe not be downvoted: Fuck that bullshit.

10 points by Curiositry 4y ago

This essay is remarkably content-free, with the exception of this: > So, until more maledictology research is conducted, all we have is the irrefutable logic of random bloggers on the internet:

jschveibinz 4y ago

There are two sides to everything. Scientists say that swearing is a sign of intelligence: https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-wellness/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-well...

Curiositry 4y ago
There certainly are. I address the study referred to by the CNN article you linked in the section[1] on the research on swearing: "The vocabulary study (Jay and Jay, 2015) indicates that those who can list the most swear words can also list the most non-swear words … but knowing lots of swear words is separate from how much someone uses swear words. The correlation isn’t surprising. Anyone who is well-read is bound to have run across just about every offensive word in common use, and a number of archaic ones besides. The study insinuates that people who know lots of swear words are verbally fluent. But I think what’s actually happening is that you can’t become verbally fluent without learning lots of swear words." The scientists say swearing is a sign of intelligence, but the science itself doesn’t necessarily. I also self-administered the CWAT test from that study, just for fun, as described in the Citizen Science Report section. [1]: https://www.autodidacts.io/swearing-is-dumb/#theresearchonswearing https://www.autodidacts.io/swearing-is-dumb/#theresearchonsw...

xmonkee 4y ago

Social dynamics are so much more complex than this childish analysis. Misses the most important reason for swearing completely: to fine-tune the tone of the conversation. And there’s nothing special about swearing here, all words and gestures can be deployed effectively for this purpose. And there is absolutely no need to avoid swearing between adults, grow the fuck up. I get the feeling this guy doesn’t have too many close friends.

Curiositry 4y ago
I agree social dynamics are more complex than this (potentially childish) analysis. Though I mentioned humour and fitting in, you're right that I didn’t really address the use of profanity to build rapport/break down formality/establish intimacy, and adjust the tone of a conversation in other ways. (Some aspects of that were on my list of things to add, but I never got around to it.) > I get the feeling this guy doesn’t have too many close friends. Thankfully, despite this essay & other indications to the contrary, I have a reasonable number of wonderful close friends (I’m sometimes as surprised as you), some of whom swear, and some of whom don't. I sometimes appreciate swearing, and sometimes find it grating. But I find that overuse of swearing usually detracts from a conversation, which is why I wrote up my argument for why there are potentially maybe possibly valid philosophical and pragmatic reasons for adults to consider swearing less.
- Nevermark 4y ago
  > But I find that overuse of swearing usually detracts from a conversation A reasonable concern. But don’t get carried away. We don’t need under use either! When my kids were young I told then that swear words were not inherently bad, but needed to be used appropriately. And I told them I couldn’t let them use them because they were not ready for that nuance, but also culturally, young children swearing was not a path to youthful success. One day driving two of them through town, my son mentioned that one of his friends said a bad word. I asked him which one, and he said “You know … fuh…!” He got his meaning across, and I was about to so “oh, ok” when his sister blurted out “kuh!” My son looked at her with surprise and admiration, and proceeded to exclaim “fuh” again, followed by his sister in what became an instant chanting game. I had to use my outdoor voice to get them to stop. My son pleaded with me. “We aren’t actually saying it, Dad!” But I told them I couldn’t allow it. He cried! I think he was four. I tried to be serious and empathetic. But no loop holes.
- xmonkee 4y ago
  I'm sorry about that last quip. Don't know why I said that. Probably reminded me of some people I don't like IRL.
4y ago

markeibes 4y ago

Actual "swearing" is dumb. Like swearing by the moon, and the stars, and the sky.

iamerroragent 4y ago

I've found in my experience in in life that those whom comment are others use of swear words are often lacking individuals whom attempt to use their felt'superior language' to demean others. Particularly to demean others of a different cultural background than them.

Curiositry 4y ago
This is unfortunately the case, which is why I start the essay with caveat that it hopefully applies to people with my cultural background who swear, and may not apply beyond that.
- iamerroragent 4y ago
  Hey as long as my culture is superior to yours because mine doesn't liberally use swear words like yours it's all good boy! Obviously I hope you can tell that's thick sarcasm to illustrate a point.
  - Curiositry 4y ago
    Yes, that is problematic :) However, different cultures use swearing very differently (and it seems the attitude that sometimes goes along with swearing in my culture doesn't always go along with swearing in other cultures), and swearing is a very tiny part of a culture, so would have very little effect at that level even if it was as "dumb" in other cultures as I think it is in mine.
    - iamerroragent 4y ago
      I disagree that is has little effect. The way we communicate is a central and essential aspect of us as a species. Even the little nods and the dog whistles matter. A dominate culture policing it's norm of communication onto another because the dominate one believes due to it being the prominent one it is thus superior leads to damaging and loss of cultural diversity and communication and perpetuates societal disunity and segregation. Viewing swearing as "dumb" and thus people who swear are "dumb" is a really easy way to openly okay associating a whole group of people that may swear often as "dumb" or to selectively apply that standard to them. You yourself are perfectly free to choose whatever words you would like to use; I am perfectly free to find language policing and censoring repugnant.

benj111 4y ago

>Note: if you swear and aren’t interested in re-considering the habit, there’s no point in reading this post. It’ll probably just annoy you. So you're only trying to convince those that are already convinced?

Curiositry 4y ago
I'm only trying to convince those that are open to the possibility of being convinced.
- phnofive 4y ago
  Well, your disclaimer seems to be a filter selecting for people who swear and are interested in stopping, so.

ofalkaed 4y ago

The real problem with swearing is that it is ambiguous, it can mean anything and is often combined with other words which are just as ambiguous, it assumes a certain amount of prior knowledge, the same goes for slang in general. I fucking hate that guy. This can mean literal hate or a general dislike or even a complicated form of admiration, knowing what was meant largely depends on knowing the speaker and the context that provides. Sometimes it is spoken in a way which makes it obvious what is meant to anyone but most of the time not. "fucking" becomes a meaningless adjective to a word that is just as meaningless, 99% of the time people use "hate" they mean something else other than literal consuming hatred, that emotion which is so close to love and in many ways indistinguishable. So what was meant? The utility of such words is difficult to deny and a great deal can be conveyed very efficiently with them, the chances of misunderstanding are strong but how many are going to sit through a soliloquy when a well chosen swear word will do? I mean, fuck, we don't go out to the bar for dear Abby, we go there to get shitfaced and forget the complexities of life. There is a time for concision and a time for emotion, they generally do not overlap.

iamerroragent 4y ago
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" - Rhett Butler Cutting and full of emotion.

retrochameleon 4y ago

I feel like this article has an interesting point to illustrate, but it is very long-winded and exhaustive. It is impossible to avoid skimming over parts, as it feels indigestible. While it seems agreeable that we should seek to expand our vocabulary instead of relying on curse words, I really dislike the sense of superiority to those who use curse words. I'm not offended to hear others curse. There are situations where I will be annoyed, yes. But there are so many others in which it can be a perfectly fine expression of one's personality. What is acceptable is not clearly written out, but is determined by one's context: the people you're around, what they express to you, your history, what's happening, the emotional intensity of the situation. It could show that you're in tune with another's emotions. You've trivialized all of these situations by suggesting that everyone should always be worried about offending others nearby, instead of expressing themselves when they need to. While you may be so certain that you've logically concluded you never need to or want to swear, it's distasteful to turn this topic into moral grandstanding and dilutes your message.

Curiositry 4y ago
I appreciate your thoughtful comment. The essay got rather bloated trying to address all the possible counter-arguments, the scientific research, and the potential caveats; and despite my efforts to tone down the moral grandstanding, a lot slipped through. I should probably re-write it as a shorter essay with a thousands footnotes, "Why I Don't Swear". > suggesting that everyone should always be worried about offending others nearby, instead of expressing themselves when they need to. Always worrying about it wouldn't be healthy, but to me it seems like a good idea to at least consider the potential negative effects self-expression may have on others, and weight that against the benefits of self-expression.
- qazpot 4y ago
  > but to me it seems like a good idea to at least consider the potential negative effects self-expression may have on others, and weight that against the benefits of self-expression. There is no end to self censorship.

GinsengJar 4y ago

This essay didn't really get to what I was hoping it would. As someone who swears a lot, I catch myself all the time and apologize. Why? What is the social contract making me do that? That's what wasn't explored. I get that it's a personal essay and not meant to be a deep analysis, though. Either way, I'd still like to have read anything about what people have to say about how they swear, when they swear, and how frequently they swear. More importantly perhaps would be their responses to "why" they swear. These anecdotes are more valuable to me personally.

gsatic 4y ago
For deep analysis, look up that strange mysterious thing as yet unexplained, but found in all humans to varying degrees - Inequity Aversion

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

necovek 4y ago

I rarely swear, but I am also never offended by swearing: I find that dumb. It's like being offended by impossible ill wishes ("I'll get you a one way ticket to the dark side of the moon"). I am offended if you are trying to say how I am eg. stupid, whether you use swearwords or not. I am usually more offended if you are attempting to use a "polite" language than if you are just swearing at me: it significates a bigger effort. As such, I don't think swearing itself is dumb: it is language, a way of expressing oneself. While it's true that swearing might offend a certain group of people (you mention older than 85 or religious people, though I'd certainly challenge that it's majority of them that are easily offended), I personally care more about the opinion of people who care about actions and message rather than the form. I am obviously not a politician looking for majority approval. Also, it's nicer if children don't use swearing regularly, because it's only about challenging the authority with them, and not thinking through all the nuances of communication.

phnofive 4y ago

Perhaps the author should read up on code-switching before writing an article about it. This could be reworked as 'Dialects are Dumb' with a little bit of search and replace.

MichaelRo 4y ago

Well I remember a lot of the opposite conclusion: "swearing is good for you". Just Google for it, there's lots of entries. Reading the OP's list, "to fit in", "to stick out" ... this doesn't apply at all to the very common situation of swearing when all alone. I personally swear and curse a lot in the privacy of my home using horrible constructs in a language way more expressive than English in this regard. English has like what? Funk and consarn it? Swearing makes me feel better over situations I've little control otherwise.

htfu 4y ago

Swearing might be dumb if used to express harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know. Somehow essay (at least the parts I could be bothered attempt read) is confused this must be the general case. What's dumb about a "fuck yeah" among friends? What is the actual difference to other general modifiers? "Not as versatile" perhaps. Language use changes with context.

simplotek 4y ago
> Swearing might be dumb if used to express harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know. If anyone expresses "harsh, negative opinions among people you don't know", the dumbness does not lie on whether they swear or not while conveying these opinions. You might as well complain about how dumb exclamation marks are.

pdc56 4y ago

He makes a convincing point in favor of swearing in this section: The Motives for Swearing Swearing is a hammer used to drive many nails. Different types are used by different people for different reasons. People swear: In imitation, because those around them swore when they were growing up, and humans learn by mimicry. To fit in among peers (or people they admire) who swear. To stick out in a culture that proscribes swearing; to sound edgy and contemporary, feel like they’re ‘living dangerously’, and experience the thrill of breaking taboos. (A subset of this: people who like to perform and play the clown often combine swearing with overstatement or ridiculousness for comedic shock value.) To blow off steam (especially as a single-word expletive when something goes wrong). To pack an emotional punch and vent feelings about a particular person or thing, either directly at the target of the feelings, or to a third party. To buy time. Swear words can be used as filler (the way people use “um”, “uh”, and “like”), buying extra time while also sounding edgy. By habit, because by now they’ve been swearing for so long it’s become ingrained.

pdc56 4y ago

This is perhaps the only HN post where I can say this and maybe not be downvoted: Fuck that bullshit.