3 ms·

If it’s a reasonable option, most people end up choosing a large vehicle. (Note than large vehicles are not a reasonable option in cities with poor auto infras

by fooker 4y ago

If it’s a reasonable option, most people end up choosing a large vehicle. (Note than large vehicles are not a reasonable option in cities with poor auto infrastructure.) It’s a classic tragedy of the commons situation, would you rather buy a car safer for you and your family or buy a small car hoping the world changes overnight? If you disagree, the car companies must also be very wrong about what the customers want, because they keep making bigger and bigger cars and people keep buying them.

atleastoptimal 4y ago
SUVs are more dangerous to their drivers too, on average. https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2002/suvs-really-safer-cars/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2002/suvs-really-safer-c...
- fooker 4y ago
  This is normalized per million sold, which is the wrong metric penalizing cars which are sold more. It should ideally be per kilometers driven.
TT-392 4y ago
I don't really see the point of buying a bigger car for your own safety. What is the point of you not being injured if you just killed someone else. You might be physically okay, but you'll be mentally scarred for life.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  That’s possibly true, but even so, that’s still better for my kids and family than if I’m dead. (For the record, both of our daily drivers are well under the average size/weight for US cars, but I understand the appeal of a car/SUV perceived as “safer for me; screw thee”.)
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  It’s not even clear that bigger cars are safer for their occupants anymore. The last time it held close to true was in the early 90s.
- proc0 4y ago
  That's obviously not the only accident that can happen. Someone can rear end you while you are parked, and I'm pretty sure everyone would rather be in a larger vehicle in that case.
- kelnos 4y ago
  I don't like SUVs, and would probably never buy one myself, but I would much rather live with having killed someone else in a car crash, than not living with it, because I'm dead. You're also ignoring the case where the other driver causes a crash, and dies, but you live. Sure, you're probably still not going to feel great about the situation, and may suffer some emotional issues, but I don't think too many people would say they'd prefer they were in a smaller car and died instead.
sammalloy 4y ago
> If you disagree, the car companies must also be very wrong about what the customers want, because they keep making bigger and bigger cars and people keep buying them. I know it’s controversial, but there’s a group of us who truly believe that yes, the car companies are wrong about what customers want, as those of us who want and desire subcompact vehicles keep being told we are wrong. Where I live, subcompacts are the most desired kind of vehicle and extremely hard to find because the car companies aren’t selling as many of them in the US as before. That is to say, they are refusing to sell them in the US market while still making and selling them overseas. When I ask the dealer about this, they say they made the decision because consumers don’t want them. When I point out that I want to buy one and so do other people, and when used vehicles of that type come in, they sell right away, they just shrug. So here’s a case where it’s the consumers repeatedly being told they are wrong for wanting smaller vehicles. It’s pretty much a fact that the larger vehicles have been intentionally pushed on US consumers, so when you say people keep buying them, they are doing so because they have no choice. With that said, there is and has been a bias against small cars in the US since the 1980s. There are two reasons for this. I think some of it can be traced to the original safety problems that small vehicles used to have, which have mostly been solved at this modern juncture. Second, I believe this bias against small cars might have started out as political and economic propaganda against foreign imports at a time when US car companies were still making large, oversize sedans. I think that much of this bias is rooted in popular propaganda that has seeped its way into conventional wisdom. I have personally rarely experienced as much random visceral anger and hatred against small cars from strangers as I have regarding anything else. It’s like a form of sexism and racism that is unique to the US. If you dare to drive a small car in the US, you are treated like a second-class citizen. It’s bizarre, it’s weird, and it’s uniquely an American phenomenon.
- cityofdelusion 4y ago
  I don’t think you can generalize the US like that. I’ve owned several small cars (and mini trucks), including small imports; I’ve never gotten a negative comment on them (in the southern US no less), people just aren’t very interested in that category. I think it’s simple economics. They sit on dealer lots and move slow, plus margins are tiny so no one wants to sell them. You see this in the rental car space especially clearly where subcompacts are easy and cheap to rent because they sit on the lots. I think the issue is simply quality —- they’re uncomfortable, cheaply made, and a few more dollars gets you way more vehicle and safety margin. Market segmentation for the dealers is bad as well, they don’t want to eat high margin big cars with loss-leader tiny cars.
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
> If it’s a reasonable option, most people end up choosing a large vehicle. If opiates were as widely marketed as large vehicles are, most people would end up being opiate addicts. People make stupid choices informed by misleading marketing all the time.
davisoneee 4y ago
Companies told customers what they want, because they get to dodge regulations, thus more profit. Manufactured demand.
proc0 4y ago
In my opinion, larger vehicles are just a product of car culture, and even those who buy small cars are contributing to a society that requires people to have cars, which inevitably leads to larger cars in the long run.
QuadmasterXLII 4y ago
And, same as gun marketing, it matters way more that the customer feels safe than is safe. I suspect that theres another common factor in some fraction of the population that gets an increased perception of safety from putting other people in danger
brnaftr361 4y ago
In the nature of things it's less what customers want, but the relationship between what is on offer, materially available, affordable and so on... If Ford offers a mustang and an F150 you don't get to pick a small sedan, right? And if you want cyan, and all that's out there is black and white, you're getting black or white... And thus it becomes a question of choosing the least-worst, which is not an indicator of desire as it is one of preference. I think we used to have a wider gamut of vehicle plans and sizes, but it has since contracted severely due to regulations (at least from my understanding). Like AMC and early Subaru were wild. VW busses are iconic but nobody is fabricating anything like it, except maybe Canoo, which has some atrocious leasing option. Anyways all the safety talk is kind of a red herring. SUVs are very dangerous and prone to rolling, as are their kindred truck brethren. Rollovers are also the deadliest form of accident. I haven't checked the statistics beyond that, but I think there are definitely misconceptions about how protective a bigger vehicle is in actuality versus how they're perceived. But I have and will continue to opt for the more agile and better centered vehicle and adopting a driving habit suited to the abilities of my vehicles, including a long leading distance at all times.

by fooker 4y ago

atleastoptimal 4y ago

SUVs are more dangerous to their drivers too, on average. https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2002/suvs-really-safer-cars/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2002/suvs-really-safer-c...

fooker 4y ago
This is normalized per million sold, which is the wrong metric penalizing cars which are sold more. It should ideally be per kilometers driven.

TT-392 4y ago

I don't really see the point of buying a bigger car for your own safety. What is the point of you not being injured if you just killed someone else. You might be physically okay, but you'll be mentally scarred for life.

sokoloff 4y ago
That’s possibly true, but even so, that’s still better for my kids and family than if I’m dead. (For the record, both of our daily drivers are well under the average size/weight for US cars, but I understand the appeal of a car/SUV perceived as “safer for me; screw thee”.)
dontlaugh 4y ago
It’s not even clear that bigger cars are safer for their occupants anymore. The last time it held close to true was in the early 90s.
proc0 4y ago
That's obviously not the only accident that can happen. Someone can rear end you while you are parked, and I'm pretty sure everyone would rather be in a larger vehicle in that case.
kelnos 4y ago
I don't like SUVs, and would probably never buy one myself, but I would much rather live with having killed someone else in a car crash, than not living with it, because I'm dead. You're also ignoring the case where the other driver causes a crash, and dies, but you live. Sure, you're probably still not going to feel great about the situation, and may suffer some emotional issues, but I don't think too many people would say they'd prefer they were in a smaller car and died instead.

sammalloy 4y ago

> If you disagree, the car companies must also be very wrong about what the customers want, because they keep making bigger and bigger cars and people keep buying them. I know it’s controversial, but there’s a group of us who truly believe that yes, the car companies are wrong about what customers want, as those of us who want and desire subcompact vehicles keep being told we are wrong. Where I live, subcompacts are the most desired kind of vehicle and extremely hard to find because the car companies aren’t selling as many of them in the US as before. That is to say, they are refusing to sell them in the US market while still making and selling them overseas. When I ask the dealer about this, they say they made the decision because consumers don’t want them. When I point out that I want to buy one and so do other people, and when used vehicles of that type come in, they sell right away, they just shrug. So here’s a case where it’s the consumers repeatedly being told they are wrong for wanting smaller vehicles. It’s pretty much a fact that the larger vehicles have been intentionally pushed on US consumers, so when you say people keep buying them, they are doing so because they have no choice. With that said, there is and has been a bias against small cars in the US since the 1980s. There are two reasons for this. I think some of it can be traced to the original safety problems that small vehicles used to have, which have mostly been solved at this modern juncture. Second, I believe this bias against small cars might have started out as political and economic propaganda against foreign imports at a time when US car companies were still making large, oversize sedans. I think that much of this bias is rooted in popular propaganda that has seeped its way into conventional wisdom. I have personally rarely experienced as much random visceral anger and hatred against small cars from strangers as I have regarding anything else. It’s like a form of sexism and racism that is unique to the US. If you dare to drive a small car in the US, you are treated like a second-class citizen. It’s bizarre, it’s weird, and it’s uniquely an American phenomenon.

cityofdelusion 4y ago
I don’t think you can generalize the US like that. I’ve owned several small cars (and mini trucks), including small imports; I’ve never gotten a negative comment on them (in the southern US no less), people just aren’t very interested in that category. I think it’s simple economics. They sit on dealer lots and move slow, plus margins are tiny so no one wants to sell them. You see this in the rental car space especially clearly where subcompacts are easy and cheap to rent because they sit on the lots. I think the issue is simply quality —- they’re uncomfortable, cheaply made, and a few more dollars gets you way more vehicle and safety margin. Market segmentation for the dealers is bad as well, they don’t want to eat high margin big cars with loss-leader tiny cars.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

> If it’s a reasonable option, most people end up choosing a large vehicle. If opiates were as widely marketed as large vehicles are, most people would end up being opiate addicts. People make stupid choices informed by misleading marketing all the time.

davisoneee 4y ago

Companies told customers what they want, because they get to dodge regulations, thus more profit. Manufactured demand.

proc0 4y ago

In my opinion, larger vehicles are just a product of car culture, and even those who buy small cars are contributing to a society that requires people to have cars, which inevitably leads to larger cars in the long run.

QuadmasterXLII 4y ago

And, same as gun marketing, it matters way more that the customer feels safe than is safe. I suspect that theres another common factor in some fraction of the population that gets an increased perception of safety from putting other people in danger

brnaftr361 4y ago

In the nature of things it's less what customers want, but the relationship between what is on offer, materially available, affordable and so on... If Ford offers a mustang and an F150 you don't get to pick a small sedan, right? And if you want cyan, and all that's out there is black and white, you're getting black or white... And thus it becomes a question of choosing the least-worst, which is not an indicator of desire as it is one of preference. I think we used to have a wider gamut of vehicle plans and sizes, but it has since contracted severely due to regulations (at least from my understanding). Like AMC and early Subaru were wild. VW busses are iconic but nobody is fabricating anything like it, except maybe Canoo, which has some atrocious leasing option. Anyways all the safety talk is kind of a red herring. SUVs are very dangerous and prone to rolling, as are their kindred truck brethren. Rollovers are also the deadliest form of accident. I haven't checked the statistics beyond that, but I think there are definitely misconceptions about how protective a bigger vehicle is in actuality versus how they're perceived. But I have and will continue to opt for the more agile and better centered vehicle and adopting a driving habit suited to the abilities of my vehicles, including a long leading distance at all times.