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The old reason for driving a smaller car/truck was reduced operating costs, mostly in fuel. That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles. In fact, ele

The old reason for driving a smaller car/truck was reduced operating costs, mostly in fuel. That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles. In fact, electric vehicles are larger/heavier than ic equivalents. This problem of huge vehicles is only going to get worse. We will all have to learn to live with more massive vehicles.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Do EVs really have to be so tall though? If they need capacity can't they be made wider or longer?
- giantg2 4y ago
  I'm looking forward to the battery tech that is currently in testing. It's supposed to be 4x better than today, at around 1kWh/1kg. As long as it pans out, that could mean 2x the distance with 1/2x the battery weight.
- xp84 4y ago
  Sure, but people like being in the tall car. Kind of an arms race situation for 25 years. More and more people have tall cars, so “I don’t wanna be the loser in the short car who can’t see over all these a*holes!” says every SUV buyer.
  - GordonS 4y ago
    I actually hate being in a tall car - the level of roll is just horrible! I much prefer being close to the road.
    - xp84 4y ago
      Same actually!
  - TylerE 4y ago
    A big factor is older folks. A midsize crossover where they can basically just slide right into the seat is way easier to get in and out of vs a low tide height car where they have to raise/lower a good portion of their body weight. Lotta bad hips and knees in the 50+ demographic.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      That only explains some of the height. And the front end could still be made lower so folks don't get as easily pulled underneath
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- mdorazio 4y ago
  Wider and/or longer make a vehicle more difficult to park and to turn in tight urban areas.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  > Do EVs really have to be so tall though? If they need capacity can't they be made wider or longer? Suddenly ahead of me Across the mountainside A gleaming alloy air-car Shoots towards me two lanes wide Oh, I spin around with shrieking tires To run the deadly race Go screaming through the valley As another joins the chase Ride like the wind Straining the limits Of machine and man Laughing out loud with fear and hope I've got a desperate plan At the one-lane bridge I leave the giants stranded At the riverside Race back to the farm To dream with my uncle At the fireside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LXKZq0fYDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LXKZq0fYDw Based on "A nice morning drive" by Richard S. Foster (https://www.scribd.com/doc/33762958/A-Nice-Morning-Drive# https://www.scribd.com/doc/33762958/A-Nice-Morning-Drive#)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
giantg2 4y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I believe even the NHTSA has made statements about the dangers the added weight and acceleration pose both to pedestrians and other vehicle occupants (and previously, their neat silent operation).
- nayuki 4y ago
  > That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles. An electric truck will still use more electrical energy to accelerate than an electric car. The cost to drive a mile in an electric vehicle is lower than a gas vehicle (maybe like one third?), but it's still a cost. Also, there's the larger initial capital cost of a larger vehicle. > We will all have to learn to live with more massive vehicles. Or we can start legislating against them and stop de kindermoord.
  - dogma1138 4y ago
    If you look at EVs with high capacity batteries 100kwh the weight difference between the saloon and SUV versions tend to be much smaller since the battery is the single heaviest component in them. The curb weight of the EQS SUV for example is only about 600lbs higher than the saloon EQS. And the model 3 is only about 400lbs lighter than the Volvo XC90 which is far larger and is about the same weight as the XC60 (ICE).
    - nayuki 4y ago
      It's possible to make EVs lighter by giving up range (e.g. 500 km -> 200 km), speed (e.g. max speed 150 km/h -> 100 km/h), and capacity (e.g. 2 seats). But people aren't willing to make these sacrifices because they're too used to the status quo.
      - dogma1138 4y ago
        It is also possible to not use a car at all. Neither of these are feasible solutions… People take trips longer than 200km and charging isn’t possible at all times also sometimes you do need to be able to make an emergency trip when infrastructure might be under stress or non functional such as in the case of bad weather or natural disaster. People in general have mobility issues, small children and large families too. Having a 2 seat feather weight short distance car is likely more wasteful than having a proper one since if you can make that work for you you probably don’t need a car in the first place.
stefan_ 4y ago
Cars having high and large hoods has nothing to do with technology.
loeg 4y ago
Heavier, yes, but having the form factor of a very tall front end is not a requirement for EV design.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Nor is it for IC vehicles. The tall car/truck thing is totally market driven. American drivers want a "high command seating position". Electric or not, people enjoy looking down on traffic. In fact a bunch of small SUVs (rav 4) are just Japanese car models made taller for the US market.
  - davisoneee 4y ago
    I'll try to find the source, but previously read that the reason SUVs are so popular is that there was some law that let 'utility vehicles' be taxed or something differently, so the manufacturers could make much more profit off them. Thus, they created this demand for a "high seating position", and pushed it on the market...and now because other cars are so large, it's an escalating war. You don't want to be a small car among giants. Nasty feedback loop.
    - digdugdirk 4y ago
      This. It was a regulation that was passed to encourage fleet level average MPG standards for auto companies, by the way. And just like everything else that is causing massive problems in our society, gigantic trucks are an outcome of a loophole in a system that was entirely predictable. Here's an article from 2011 predicting our current automotive market: https://me.engin.umich.edu/news-events/news/cafe-standards-could-mean-bigger-cars-not-smaller-ones/ https://me.engin.umich.edu/news-events/news/cafe-standards-c... And here's the relevant section that called it from the get-go - emphasis mine: At issue was this: Some companies offer full model lines, from cars to large SUVs and pickups, but some don’t. How could there be a overreaching fuel-economy standard that penalized companies like Ford and GM, while carmakers that sold only smaller cars effortlessly abided by the rules? So the concept of vehicle footprint was added. Models that ran large, crossing specific length-by-width thresholds‚ would have less ambitious fuel-economy targets. While the Obama administration has pushed for more aggressive CAFE numbers, the amended regulations retain the footprint-based leniency towards bigger cars and light trucks. The result is a loophole, allowing the entire auto industry to sidestep some of the more painful efficiency requirements by inflating vehicle footprints. And historically, drivers almost always lean toward larger vehicles. “In general, if everything else about the vehicle is the same, consumers prefer the bigger one, with the roomier interior,” says Kate Whitefoot, a senior program officer at the National Academy of Engineering and the lead author of the paper (she was a doctoral student at the time of the study). Combine a regulatory loophole with a built-in, well-known customer choice, and the industry lurches towards the inevitable: larger models and more light trucks.
eastof 4y ago
That's assuming EVs will become popular which is pretty ridiculous for most of the world. Most people want to stick with their smaller ICE cars, and that's really what we're going to continue to live with.
- quonn 4y ago
  Source? The whole world will change to EVs. It might take a bit longer in some places but it will happen.
Xylakant 4y ago
Electric vehicles are often heavier than comparable ICE vehicles, but not necessarily larger or even large. Chevy Bolt, VW ID.4, Smart Fortwo EQ etc are all perfectly small electric vehicles.
- rektide 4y ago
  Yeah exactly. Batteries tend to take up the bottom couple inches of the car, as the "skateboard" design wins. 2170 cells are 70mm tall, 2.75 inches. That's not a huge factor. Also, it doesn't affect the incredibly crucial hood height, which could be greatly lowered since there's no engine/engine bay needed! Also the underside of gas cars need at least exhaust, sometimes drive axles, and usually other crap that can be deleted from ev's that helps lower EVs too. I don't think EVs are practically any taller. They also, recently, have all the weight at the bottom, which is extremely from a handling/stability perspective. Even if you slam on the breaks, sideways at speed, you ain't gonna flip (some SUV's excepted). This is useful for emergency braking. As for weight, the main potential problem is braking. Thankfully anti-lock brakes & big calipers are quite amazing. Ioniq vehicles have a 60-0 stopping distance of 118ft, which is on the low end of most vehicles in general, such as the also well performing Honda Accord Sport 2.0T. In car on car situations the additional weight has extra inertia but cars are generally quite resillient. As for pedestrians bicyclists & others light targets, cars already weighed so vastly much more that it's hard to imagine the extra weight changing 99.999% of accident outcomes significantly.
foooorsyth 4y ago
>That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles It already mostly disappeared, or entered the realm of “completely reasonable trade-off”, with the rise of unibody low-displacement SUVs. The original SUVs were body-on-frame V8s that got 13 mpg. Gas price and uncomfortable ride were a huge factor. Now you can get a RAV4 hybrid that drives like a car and gets 40 mpg. And you get a tailgate. Why would anyone bother with a sedan and the limitations the trunk gives you? For 5-7 more mpg it’s not worth it.
- vuln 4y ago
  > RAV4 hybrid that drives like a car and gets 40 mpg. I had a 2018 rav4 hybrid that never got close to 40MPG. Maybe 30-32 in the city, but once you hit the interstate where the speed limit is 65-70 the MPG significantly drops to 25-7 due to the underpowered 4 cylinder engine and the massive 3,900 lbs curb weight. The rav4 only had 5k miles on it when we got rid of it. I guess it’s good if you live in a big city or never drive the actual speed limit on the interstates.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    The difference in fuel consumed from 40 down to 30 mpg was a little over 40 gallons over your ownership (so under $200). That hardly seems worth changing cars over once you’ve bought it.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      We really need to start using gallons per distance instead of distance per gallon. The former doesn’t distort the proportion. Going from 10mpg to 20 is massive, literally double the efficiency. 20 to 30 is still a pretty big deal. 30 to 40 is noticeable, but not really a huge deal. 40 to 50 is barely above the noise floor
      - analog31 4y ago
        There are all kinds of interesting "reciprocal" units that lead to confusion. Another one is price-to-earnings ratio, which goes through an anomaly at zero, even though earnings-to-price ratio is a nice smooth function.
fizzynut 4y ago
The weight of the car only affects the fuel cost for accelerating to a given speed. Maintaining a speed is almost entirely the surface area * coefficient of drag * speed^2 some of which is used for cooling. Electric cars generally have better drag characteristics, the 3rd variable is largely the driver + speed limits, but yes bigger = worse.
dathinab 4y ago
> The old reason for driving a smaller car/truck depending where you live the main reason was and still is fitting in the streets and finding parking spots. I mean sure large parts of the US are designed not only car centric but also with not only focus on large cars but even wants to make driving them extra easy. But that's not at all the case in the EU. Like there are many places with streets where driving a large US cars is troublesome or outright impossible and parking spots are all the time at least slightly too small for many US cars. Similar there are many place with no or very limited dedicated parking ares, mainly at the side of the street and the larger your car the more spots you will not fit in or fit in but it's hard to enter them without touching surrounding cars or similar. > largely disappears for electric vehicles which many people still don't want, because if you don't have your own parking spot (very common in the EU) then charging gets much more complicated > In fact, electric vehicles are larger/heavier than ic equivalents. Heavier yes, but there are small and compact EVs, through often with quite limited reach and mainly advertised to/sold in countries with a lot of small streets.

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Do EVs really have to be so tall though? If they need capacity can't they be made wider or longer?

giantg2 4y ago
I'm looking forward to the battery tech that is currently in testing. It's supposed to be 4x better than today, at around 1kWh/1kg. As long as it pans out, that could mean 2x the distance with 1/2x the battery weight.
xp84 4y ago
Sure, but people like being in the tall car. Kind of an arms race situation for 25 years. More and more people have tall cars, so “I don’t wanna be the loser in the short car who can’t see over all these a*holes!” says every SUV buyer.
- GordonS 4y ago
  I actually hate being in a tall car - the level of roll is just horrible! I much prefer being close to the road.
  - xp84 4y ago
    Same actually!
- TylerE 4y ago
  A big factor is older folks. A midsize crossover where they can basically just slide right into the seat is way easier to get in and out of vs a low tide height car where they have to raise/lower a good portion of their body weight. Lotta bad hips and knees in the 50+ demographic.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    That only explains some of the height. And the front end could still be made lower so folks don't get as easily pulled underneath
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mdorazio 4y ago
Wider and/or longer make a vehicle more difficult to park and to turn in tight urban areas.
the_third_wave 4y ago
> Do EVs really have to be so tall though? If they need capacity can't they be made wider or longer? Suddenly ahead of me Across the mountainside A gleaming alloy air-car Shoots towards me two lanes wide Oh, I spin around with shrieking tires To run the deadly race Go screaming through the valley As another joins the chase Ride like the wind Straining the limits Of machine and man Laughing out loud with fear and hope I've got a desperate plan At the one-lane bridge I leave the giants stranded At the riverside Race back to the farm To dream with my uncle At the fireside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LXKZq0fYDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LXKZq0fYDw Based on "A nice morning drive" by Richard S. Foster (https://www.scribd.com/doc/33762958/A-Nice-Morning-Drive# https://www.scribd.com/doc/33762958/A-Nice-Morning-Drive#)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

giantg2 4y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I believe even the NHTSA has made statements about the dangers the added weight and acceleration pose both to pedestrians and other vehicle occupants (and previously, their neat silent operation).

nayuki 4y ago
> That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles. An electric truck will still use more electrical energy to accelerate than an electric car. The cost to drive a mile in an electric vehicle is lower than a gas vehicle (maybe like one third?), but it's still a cost. Also, there's the larger initial capital cost of a larger vehicle. > We will all have to learn to live with more massive vehicles. Or we can start legislating against them and stop de kindermoord.
- dogma1138 4y ago
  If you look at EVs with high capacity batteries 100kwh the weight difference between the saloon and SUV versions tend to be much smaller since the battery is the single heaviest component in them. The curb weight of the EQS SUV for example is only about 600lbs higher than the saloon EQS. And the model 3 is only about 400lbs lighter than the Volvo XC90 which is far larger and is about the same weight as the XC60 (ICE).
  - nayuki 4y ago
    It's possible to make EVs lighter by giving up range (e.g. 500 km -> 200 km), speed (e.g. max speed 150 km/h -> 100 km/h), and capacity (e.g. 2 seats). But people aren't willing to make these sacrifices because they're too used to the status quo.
    - dogma1138 4y ago
      It is also possible to not use a car at all. Neither of these are feasible solutions… People take trips longer than 200km and charging isn’t possible at all times also sometimes you do need to be able to make an emergency trip when infrastructure might be under stress or non functional such as in the case of bad weather or natural disaster. People in general have mobility issues, small children and large families too. Having a 2 seat feather weight short distance car is likely more wasteful than having a proper one since if you can make that work for you you probably don’t need a car in the first place.

stefan_ 4y ago

Cars having high and large hoods has nothing to do with technology.

loeg 4y ago

Heavier, yes, but having the form factor of a very tall front end is not a requirement for EV design.

sandworm101 4y ago
Nor is it for IC vehicles. The tall car/truck thing is totally market driven. American drivers want a "high command seating position". Electric or not, people enjoy looking down on traffic. In fact a bunch of small SUVs (rav 4) are just Japanese car models made taller for the US market.
- davisoneee 4y ago
  I'll try to find the source, but previously read that the reason SUVs are so popular is that there was some law that let 'utility vehicles' be taxed or something differently, so the manufacturers could make much more profit off them. Thus, they created this demand for a "high seating position", and pushed it on the market...and now because other cars are so large, it's an escalating war. You don't want to be a small car among giants. Nasty feedback loop.
  - digdugdirk 4y ago
    This. It was a regulation that was passed to encourage fleet level average MPG standards for auto companies, by the way. And just like everything else that is causing massive problems in our society, gigantic trucks are an outcome of a loophole in a system that was entirely predictable. Here's an article from 2011 predicting our current automotive market: https://me.engin.umich.edu/news-events/news/cafe-standards-could-mean-bigger-cars-not-smaller-ones/ https://me.engin.umich.edu/news-events/news/cafe-standards-c... And here's the relevant section that called it from the get-go - emphasis mine: At issue was this: Some companies offer full model lines, from cars to large SUVs and pickups, but some don’t. How could there be a overreaching fuel-economy standard that penalized companies like Ford and GM, while carmakers that sold only smaller cars effortlessly abided by the rules? So the concept of vehicle footprint was added. Models that ran large, crossing specific length-by-width thresholds‚ would have less ambitious fuel-economy targets. While the Obama administration has pushed for more aggressive CAFE numbers, the amended regulations retain the footprint-based leniency towards bigger cars and light trucks. The result is a loophole, allowing the entire auto industry to sidestep some of the more painful efficiency requirements by inflating vehicle footprints. And historically, drivers almost always lean toward larger vehicles. “In general, if everything else about the vehicle is the same, consumers prefer the bigger one, with the roomier interior,” says Kate Whitefoot, a senior program officer at the National Academy of Engineering and the lead author of the paper (she was a doctoral student at the time of the study). Combine a regulatory loophole with a built-in, well-known customer choice, and the industry lurches towards the inevitable: larger models and more light trucks.

eastof 4y ago

That's assuming EVs will become popular which is pretty ridiculous for most of the world. Most people want to stick with their smaller ICE cars, and that's really what we're going to continue to live with.

quonn 4y ago
Source? The whole world will change to EVs. It might take a bit longer in some places but it will happen.

Xylakant 4y ago

Electric vehicles are often heavier than comparable ICE vehicles, but not necessarily larger or even large. Chevy Bolt, VW ID.4, Smart Fortwo EQ etc are all perfectly small electric vehicles.

rektide 4y ago
Yeah exactly. Batteries tend to take up the bottom couple inches of the car, as the "skateboard" design wins. 2170 cells are 70mm tall, 2.75 inches. That's not a huge factor. Also, it doesn't affect the incredibly crucial hood height, which could be greatly lowered since there's no engine/engine bay needed! Also the underside of gas cars need at least exhaust, sometimes drive axles, and usually other crap that can be deleted from ev's that helps lower EVs too. I don't think EVs are practically any taller. They also, recently, have all the weight at the bottom, which is extremely from a handling/stability perspective. Even if you slam on the breaks, sideways at speed, you ain't gonna flip (some SUV's excepted). This is useful for emergency braking. As for weight, the main potential problem is braking. Thankfully anti-lock brakes & big calipers are quite amazing. Ioniq vehicles have a 60-0 stopping distance of 118ft, which is on the low end of most vehicles in general, such as the also well performing Honda Accord Sport 2.0T. In car on car situations the additional weight has extra inertia but cars are generally quite resillient. As for pedestrians bicyclists & others light targets, cars already weighed so vastly much more that it's hard to imagine the extra weight changing 99.999% of accident outcomes significantly.

foooorsyth 4y ago

>That reason largely disappears for electric vehicles It already mostly disappeared, or entered the realm of “completely reasonable trade-off”, with the rise of unibody low-displacement SUVs. The original SUVs were body-on-frame V8s that got 13 mpg. Gas price and uncomfortable ride were a huge factor. Now you can get a RAV4 hybrid that drives like a car and gets 40 mpg. And you get a tailgate. Why would anyone bother with a sedan and the limitations the trunk gives you? For 5-7 more mpg it’s not worth it.

vuln 4y ago
> RAV4 hybrid that drives like a car and gets 40 mpg. I had a 2018 rav4 hybrid that never got close to 40MPG. Maybe 30-32 in the city, but once you hit the interstate where the speed limit is 65-70 the MPG significantly drops to 25-7 due to the underpowered 4 cylinder engine and the massive 3,900 lbs curb weight. The rav4 only had 5k miles on it when we got rid of it. I guess it’s good if you live in a big city or never drive the actual speed limit on the interstates.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  The difference in fuel consumed from 40 down to 30 mpg was a little over 40 gallons over your ownership (so under $200). That hardly seems worth changing cars over once you’ve bought it.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    We really need to start using gallons per distance instead of distance per gallon. The former doesn’t distort the proportion. Going from 10mpg to 20 is massive, literally double the efficiency. 20 to 30 is still a pretty big deal. 30 to 40 is noticeable, but not really a huge deal. 40 to 50 is barely above the noise floor
    - analog31 4y ago
      There are all kinds of interesting "reciprocal" units that lead to confusion. Another one is price-to-earnings ratio, which goes through an anomaly at zero, even though earnings-to-price ratio is a nice smooth function.

fizzynut 4y ago

The weight of the car only affects the fuel cost for accelerating to a given speed. Maintaining a speed is almost entirely the surface area * coefficient of drag * speed^2 some of which is used for cooling. Electric cars generally have better drag characteristics, the 3rd variable is largely the driver + speed limits, but yes bigger = worse.

dathinab 4y ago

> The old reason for driving a smaller car/truck depending where you live the main reason was and still is fitting in the streets and finding parking spots. I mean sure large parts of the US are designed not only car centric but also with not only focus on large cars but even wants to make driving them extra easy. But that's not at all the case in the EU. Like there are many places with streets where driving a large US cars is troublesome or outright impossible and parking spots are all the time at least slightly too small for many US cars. Similar there are many place with no or very limited dedicated parking ares, mainly at the side of the street and the larger your car the more spots you will not fit in or fit in but it's hard to enter them without touching surrounding cars or similar. > largely disappears for electric vehicles which many people still don't want, because if you don't have your own parking spot (very common in the EU) then charging gets much more complicated > In fact, electric vehicles are larger/heavier than ic equivalents. Heavier yes, but there are small and compact EVs, through often with quite limited reach and mainly advertised to/sold in countries with a lot of small streets.