4 ms·

From my experience having a German wife and visiting Europe yearly (which is limited experience but helpful), many Europeans genuinely believe that the governme

From my experience having a German wife and visiting Europe yearly (which is limited experience but helpful), many Europeans genuinely believe that the government can do things better than private groups. The evidence for the validity of this belief speaks for itself (not valid). In Europe, security seems to be one of the highest considerations in taking action which leads Europeans to have far more trust in large old corporations than in untested and untried new companies. The exceptions to this view are Eastern European countries like Czech Rep, and Poland and Romania, etc.

ivankirigin 19y ago
To a certain extent, Europe does do socialism better. I'm sure if you could plot the corruption & waste per taxpayer dollar, the US would win. Former Eastern Block states had a completely incompetent and corrupt government, meaning movement to open markets was the only direction and the results are awesome. Estonia is a perfect example.
- gibsonf1 19y ago
  Hmm, how do you do socialism better? Germany, as propsperous as it is, has chronically high unemployment (from 10% up to 20% in some areas) and a huge crisis right now with funding their version of social security (which they are unable to do.) What is really impressive about the Germans is that they actually look at the money they have and think about how that money is spent (in the public realm and private realm) instead of the smoke and mirrors we get here about how much something will cost and how it will be funded. Germans like precision, especially with money, even government money which is great to see, but does not solve the underlying impossibility of success with socialism. Germany is successful to the extent that it is capitalist - the socialist side is what prevents Germany from being as impressive as it should be.
  - ivankirigin 19y ago
    I would define "do socialism better", as programs that come closer to the intent, with successful deployment. A concrete example: Scandinavian heath care might fall apart in the US from corruption -- something that isn't a problem so much there. I'm not saying socialism is a good idea, even in Europe.
    - rms 19y ago
      There are degrees of socialism. What if the United States government took 1% of all new companies?
      - pg 19y ago
        In effect it takes about a third of all companies, because corporate tax rates are about a third of earnings.
        rms 19y ago
        Right... you could say that the United States is 33% socialist, based on the tax rates. Is it inherently better for a government to tax corporations instead of owning them? I look at China, which owns 30% of Lenovo and has shares in many Chinese companies and wonder if a combination of taxing and partial state ownership is the way to go.
  - euccastro 19y ago
    Germany and other rich EU countries are spending quite a bit of money in helping the poorer members converge (a spectacular success case is Ireland). I think the benefits of that will be seen long term.
    - gibsonf1 19y ago
      The long term is already here - the results: high unemployment, stagnating innovation, financial crisis in the public sector with unfunded liabilities. Germany is now lengthening retirement age, raising taxes, lowering benefits, etc to try not to go under. And the high unemployment is really a big deal - it is giving rise to a growing rightest (ie neo-nazi) movement in Germany, and I think to Islamic extremists in France, etc.
      - ivankirigin 19y ago
        I guess I'm talking about specific program compliance and not macro-economic effects. I agree with you about the latter.
      - euccastro 19y ago
        That's the short term.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    The news of this thread seems to refute that. Living in Germany, my impression is that the government actually thinks it can generate value by raising taxes.
    - gibsonf1 19y ago
      It is scary, but I think true.
  - Tobias42 19y ago
    The unemployment rate in Germany currently is 8.8%. Bad enough, but far from 10-20%. In the East there are some regions with more than 20% unemployment, but on the other hand in the prosperous southern states (Baden-Wurttemberg, Bavaria) it is about 5-6%.
willarson 19y ago
Good point. I think even in America that most people are uncomfortable when they say the free market will lead to the best/optimal/most efficient solutions. Its just they are even more uncomfortable to say that a big government will. Then again, it looks like universal healthcare will be at least an interesting side-story in the upcoming US presidential race. Perhaps socialism is finding some roots in US politics.
- PindaxDotCom 19y ago
  You'd need only look as far as FEMA to see an example of what a government agency can provide. Do you really want a similar agency running your healthcare? I'd sooner sign up for Google-Health, if there were such a thing.
  - willarson 19y ago
    Personally I was waiting out for Enron-Healthcare. Oh wait. Maybe both systems can fail catastrophically. ;)
    - gibsonf1 19y ago
      Enron's ability to manipulate the system was only possible because the system was not a free market, but a disastrously regulated market. Also, Enron behaved in criminally fraudulent ways, which for a business, is the beginning of the end. So Enron does not provide a free market comparison.
      - PindaxDotCom 19y ago
        I would only add: The US system is not perfect ... we are not nearly capitalist enough!
        gibsonf1 19y ago
        And thats a fact!

ivankirigin 19y ago

To a certain extent, Europe does do socialism better. I'm sure if you could plot the corruption & waste per taxpayer dollar, the US would win. Former Eastern Block states had a completely incompetent and corrupt government, meaning movement to open markets was the only direction and the results are awesome. Estonia is a perfect example.

gibsonf1 19y ago
Hmm, how do you do socialism better? Germany, as propsperous as it is, has chronically high unemployment (from 10% up to 20% in some areas) and a huge crisis right now with funding their version of social security (which they are unable to do.) What is really impressive about the Germans is that they actually look at the money they have and think about how that money is spent (in the public realm and private realm) instead of the smoke and mirrors we get here about how much something will cost and how it will be funded. Germans like precision, especially with money, even government money which is great to see, but does not solve the underlying impossibility of success with socialism. Germany is successful to the extent that it is capitalist - the socialist side is what prevents Germany from being as impressive as it should be.
- ivankirigin 19y ago
  I would define "do socialism better", as programs that come closer to the intent, with successful deployment. A concrete example: Scandinavian heath care might fall apart in the US from corruption -- something that isn't a problem so much there. I'm not saying socialism is a good idea, even in Europe.
  - rms 19y ago
    There are degrees of socialism. What if the United States government took 1% of all new companies?
    - pg 19y ago
      In effect it takes about a third of all companies, because corporate tax rates are about a third of earnings.
      - rms 19y ago
        Right... you could say that the United States is 33% socialist, based on the tax rates. Is it inherently better for a government to tax corporations instead of owning them? I look at China, which owns 30% of Lenovo and has shares in many Chinese companies and wonder if a combination of taxing and partial state ownership is the way to go.
- euccastro 19y ago
  Germany and other rich EU countries are spending quite a bit of money in helping the poorer members converge (a spectacular success case is Ireland). I think the benefits of that will be seen long term.
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    The long term is already here - the results: high unemployment, stagnating innovation, financial crisis in the public sector with unfunded liabilities. Germany is now lengthening retirement age, raising taxes, lowering benefits, etc to try not to go under. And the high unemployment is really a big deal - it is giving rise to a growing rightest (ie neo-nazi) movement in Germany, and I think to Islamic extremists in France, etc.
    - ivankirigin 19y ago
      I guess I'm talking about specific program compliance and not macro-economic effects. I agree with you about the latter.
    - euccastro 19y ago
      That's the short term.
- Tichy 19y ago
  The news of this thread seems to refute that. Living in Germany, my impression is that the government actually thinks it can generate value by raising taxes.
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    It is scary, but I think true.
- Tobias42 19y ago
  The unemployment rate in Germany currently is 8.8%. Bad enough, but far from 10-20%. In the East there are some regions with more than 20% unemployment, but on the other hand in the prosperous southern states (Baden-Wurttemberg, Bavaria) it is about 5-6%.

willarson 19y ago

Good point. I think even in America that most people are uncomfortable when they say the free market will lead to the best/optimal/most efficient solutions. Its just they are even more uncomfortable to say that a big government will. Then again, it looks like universal healthcare will be at least an interesting side-story in the upcoming US presidential race. Perhaps socialism is finding some roots in US politics.

PindaxDotCom 19y ago
You'd need only look as far as FEMA to see an example of what a government agency can provide. Do you really want a similar agency running your healthcare? I'd sooner sign up for Google-Health, if there were such a thing.
- willarson 19y ago
  Personally I was waiting out for Enron-Healthcare. Oh wait. Maybe both systems can fail catastrophically. ;)
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    Enron's ability to manipulate the system was only possible because the system was not a free market, but a disastrously regulated market. Also, Enron behaved in criminally fraudulent ways, which for a business, is the beginning of the end. So Enron does not provide a free market comparison.
    - PindaxDotCom 19y ago
      I would only add: The US system is not perfect ... we are not nearly capitalist enough!
      - gibsonf1 19y ago
        And thats a fact!