5 ms·

Just file this in the bin marked government-corporate propaganda aimed at expanding the surveillance state and implementing China's approach to monitoring citiz

Just file this in the bin marked government-corporate propaganda aimed at expanding the surveillance state and implementing China's approach to monitoring citizen communications on various platforms. The consolidated corporate media seems to believe that if this 21-year old leaker had all his communications monitored and was tagged with a constantly updated social credit score, he could have been flagged as a risk much earlier and these embarrassing documents about the scale of the US government's involvement in the Ukraine war could have been kept from the public. That's of course a profoundly anti-Bill-of-Rights authoritarian stance, maybe adopted because 'the ruling class in America hates our freedoms?' Lord forbid the Ukraine war end in some kind of negotiated settlement, that would mean Europe might lift sanctions on Russian gas, reducing the demand for LNG exports... as well as reducing the diversion of taxpayer dollars to bloated military-industrial contracts. > "U.S. LNG exporters boosted shipments to Europe by more than 137% in the first 11 months of 2022 from the same period in 2021..." https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-both-lifeline-drain-europe-2023-maguire-2022-12-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-both-... It's kind of astonishing how bad the Washington Post has gotten since Jeff Bezos bought it...oh and look, Discord uses Google Cloud, not AWS! Well that explains a lot.

generic92034 4y ago
> Lord forbid the Ukraine war end in some kind of negotiated settlement, that would mean Europe might lift sanctions on Russian gas, reducing the demand for LNG exports... as well as reducing the diversion of taxpayer dollars to bloated military-industrial contracts. You did not write that, but just to make it clear to people who do not know - there were no EU sanctions on Russian gas, but Russia cut off (most of) the supply unilaterally.
- scythe 4y ago
  A list of sanctions is available: https://eu-solidarity-ukraine.ec.europa.eu/eu-sanctions-against-russia-following-invasion-ukraine_en https://eu-solidarity-ukraine.ec.europa.eu/eu-sanctions-agai... Russian oil and coal are heavily sanctioned, but not gas. This may have caused the confusion. Bans on any fuels from Russia likely contribute to European demand for fuel from other countries.
javajosh 4y ago
> government-corporate propaganda aimed at expanding the surveillance state I'm one of those people who believes very strongly that Snowden was a hero for exposing grossly illegal and immoral activity, and should be pardoned. But I do not feel this way about this case. Why? Because the leak did not expose government malfeasance, and therefore wasn't in the interest of the American people. Ordinary anti-espionage rules can and should apply.
- scythe 4y ago
  You don't have to support the leaker to oppose expanded social media monitoring back-channels for the intelligence services.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    I think ICs are already in all the major social media back-ends that a nation hosts. I think that allies (like Israel and the US) regularly trade access to circumvent laws preventing surveillance of own citizens. Meanwhile LEOs of all stripes are already in social media, through the front-door. The former is abhorrent and should be a big scandal, but it won't be. Snowden showed that Americans simply don't care. Given that signal, why stop? The latter is actually good, in general. LEOs doing actual police work, joining groups that might be extremist...that's the online equivalent of undercover work, and I think it's good when it's human work. So, basically I agree that proactive, general IC infiltration of back-ends is wrong, but I think its already happening and won't stop without change of sentiment. LEOs can and should do more human investigation, join groups, get involved, see what they are about - and then leave them alone if they aren't a physical threat. Obviously this can be super problematic (e.g. the FBI vs MLK) but the only alternative is to just sit there and wait for an attack. That's no bueno, either.
    - mjreacher 4y ago
      If ICs were already all over major social media like Discord, then how did these leaks sit spread around unnoticed for almost half a year? I swear every time this comes up people's critical thinking just vanishes into thin air. Mythologizing intelligence agencies as these omniscient entities only benefits them.
bparsons 4y ago
You think he leaked these documents to bring about a negotiated end to the war?
michaelmrose 4y ago
This is a tired topic. We are not in a position to negotiate the surrender of territory to a murderous barbarous invading power so they can build more concentration camps through which to "process" more of the citizens who live there. Only Ukraine can do that and she has little incentive to do so given what has and will be done to its people and the unwillingness of Russia to keep prior settlements in 1991 or 2014. Allowing them to enlarge their share then consolidate, regroup, rebuild their forces, and ease out of financial straights and better prepare to take the rest of it in a few years and once again sally forth to murder, rape, and destroy is a bargain no reasonable person would take. If you are suggesting that we stop providing them weapons in hopes that they be more inclined to negotiate you have misjudged the situation and you would have us only condemn people to murder and horror as punishment for your failure to analyze what is ultimately a simple situation explained in simple terms by Putin's own words on the topic. Furthermore you seem to have analyzed the article in question based mostly on the title as the shallow straw man you scoff at seems absent from the actual reporting. In fact it does a better job than you of dismissing the argument you foist upon it. >----------------------------- “We do not have nor do we want a system where the United States government monitors private internet chats,” Glenn Gerstell, the former general counsel of the National Security Agency, told NBC on Wednesday. On Discord, some servers already joke about the possibility of being surreptitiously infiltrated by the government. Using a word first coined on the anything-goes message board 4chan, people commonly accuse others of being “glowies” — federal agents whose out-of-place behaviors are so obvious that they practically glow. But surveilling gamer chatrooms might also end up pushing away the same young recruits the military desperately needs, all for questionable practical gain: The internet is full of ways to anonymously share images, videos and documents. >----------------------------- I invite you to read more of it as its actually fairly well thought out
- Izkata 4y ago
  > Only Ukraine can do that and she has little incentive to do so given what has and will be done to its people and the unwillingness of Russia to keep prior settlements in 1991 or 2014. They were a year ago: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-boris-johnson-business-24cd8742435251d9dd46bcc29302bd13 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-bor...
unusualmonkey 4y ago
If you want to simp for genocidal dictators please at least be original.
iudqnolq 4y ago
Please give an example of a document that reveals greater US involvement than was known previously. The documents I've seen revealed Ukrainian secrets. For example, they revealed Ukrainian casualty numbers and Ukrainian estimates of Russian casualty numbers. Everyone paying attention before this leak knew that the US is giving significant support in the form of advice, money, and arms. Everyone knew that the US has a small number of military personnel in the embassy but isn't fighting in the war. Some people think this is bad, but it's not a secret.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ifyoubuildit 4y ago
  For example: "Ukraine war: Leak shows Western special forces on the ground" (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65245065 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65245065) You can say "everyone knew that" but nobody could prove it before.
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    I stand corrected. The presence of US troops in the Kyiv embassy was revealed last November, but the fact they are special forces is new.
  - pelorat 4y ago
    Well we knew that, we also know they are there mostly training Ukrainian soldiers, and some might be tasked with embassy duty as most countries (unlike USA) don't protect their embassies with military presence. You're not going to find any NATO SoF near the front-lines.
  - mjreacher 4y ago
    They literally openly admitted it last November. You can say the special forces part is new but that isn't the point being made by most, which is about US troop boots on the ground, and the military never says which specific type of troops are there anyway for operational security reasons. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-military-inspectors-ukraine-keep-track-weapons-equipment-rcna54891 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-military-inspectors-...
KMag 4y ago
Back when I got my DoD security clearance, I remember my employer's security officer sitting down with me and going through a PowerPoint together, and then witnessing my signing of some paperwork. As I remember, one of the points in that paperwork is that a warrant wasn't required to tap my phone, etc. (and also, I'd go to prison if I shared anything improperly). Am I misremembering? Maybe it was only that no warrant was required to monitor me on company systems, but (it's been 20 years), I thought I was generally signing away an expectation of privacy in exchange for access to classified information. (So, indirectly gaining extra pay, job security, and access to interesting technology in exchange for signing away privacy... not sure how I feel about that 20 years later, but it seemed a good trade at the time.) If I'm remembering things properly, no extra legislation is necessary for monitoring people with DoD security clearances. Even if monitoring were warranted, I believe these powers already exist to cover this case, and any extra legislation is a power grab.
- warner25 4y ago
  > Am I misremembering? Maybe it was only that no warrant was required to monitor me on company systems... I've only been in uniform, not worked for private defense contractors, but it should be this. On government (classified or not) systems, websites, etc. you're subject to monitoring, and a prominent banner reminds you of this every time you logon. All web traffic goes through a proxy that breaks TLS to do inspection. Your .mil email and files on your government device(s) get scanned. Even a low level (like, 19 year-old E-2 with a Sec+ certificate) sysadmin can manage accounts in Active Directory and browse any machine on the domain through C$ administrative shares. This doesn't apply to your personal devices unless you've brought them somewhere that they shouldn't go. The paperwork is mostly a non-disclosure agreement.
pelorat 4y ago
We don't want Russian gas any more. We don't want any gas. I sadly live in a country where 50% of the power generation comes from LNG, but fuck that. We need to work to make it 0%.
lotusmars 4y ago
[flagged]
clouddrover 4y ago
> Lord forbid the Ukraine war end in some kind of negotiated settlement No negotiation is possible when Russia's starting position is that Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people. Putin's held that position for years: https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russian-empire-says-ukraine-not-real-country-2022-2?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russia... The way the war ends is Russia is first defeated and the negotiations that will then follow will be about the reparations Russia must pay and the war criminals Russia must extradite.

generic92034 4y ago

> Lord forbid the Ukraine war end in some kind of negotiated settlement, that would mean Europe might lift sanctions on Russian gas, reducing the demand for LNG exports... as well as reducing the diversion of taxpayer dollars to bloated military-industrial contracts. You did not write that, but just to make it clear to people who do not know - there were no EU sanctions on Russian gas, but Russia cut off (most of) the supply unilaterally.

scythe 4y ago
A list of sanctions is available: https://eu-solidarity-ukraine.ec.europa.eu/eu-sanctions-against-russia-following-invasion-ukraine_en https://eu-solidarity-ukraine.ec.europa.eu/eu-sanctions-agai... Russian oil and coal are heavily sanctioned, but not gas. This may have caused the confusion. Bans on any fuels from Russia likely contribute to European demand for fuel from other countries.

javajosh 4y ago

> government-corporate propaganda aimed at expanding the surveillance state I'm one of those people who believes very strongly that Snowden was a hero for exposing grossly illegal and immoral activity, and should be pardoned. But I do not feel this way about this case. Why? Because the leak did not expose government malfeasance, and therefore wasn't in the interest of the American people. Ordinary anti-espionage rules can and should apply.

scythe 4y ago
You don't have to support the leaker to oppose expanded social media monitoring back-channels for the intelligence services.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I think ICs are already in all the major social media back-ends that a nation hosts. I think that allies (like Israel and the US) regularly trade access to circumvent laws preventing surveillance of own citizens. Meanwhile LEOs of all stripes are already in social media, through the front-door. The former is abhorrent and should be a big scandal, but it won't be. Snowden showed that Americans simply don't care. Given that signal, why stop? The latter is actually good, in general. LEOs doing actual police work, joining groups that might be extremist...that's the online equivalent of undercover work, and I think it's good when it's human work. So, basically I agree that proactive, general IC infiltration of back-ends is wrong, but I think its already happening and won't stop without change of sentiment. LEOs can and should do more human investigation, join groups, get involved, see what they are about - and then leave them alone if they aren't a physical threat. Obviously this can be super problematic (e.g. the FBI vs MLK) but the only alternative is to just sit there and wait for an attack. That's no bueno, either.
  - mjreacher 4y ago
    If ICs were already all over major social media like Discord, then how did these leaks sit spread around unnoticed for almost half a year? I swear every time this comes up people's critical thinking just vanishes into thin air. Mythologizing intelligence agencies as these omniscient entities only benefits them.

bparsons 4y ago

You think he leaked these documents to bring about a negotiated end to the war?

michaelmrose 4y ago

This is a tired topic. We are not in a position to negotiate the surrender of territory to a murderous barbarous invading power so they can build more concentration camps through which to "process" more of the citizens who live there. Only Ukraine can do that and she has little incentive to do so given what has and will be done to its people and the unwillingness of Russia to keep prior settlements in 1991 or 2014. Allowing them to enlarge their share then consolidate, regroup, rebuild their forces, and ease out of financial straights and better prepare to take the rest of it in a few years and once again sally forth to murder, rape, and destroy is a bargain no reasonable person would take. If you are suggesting that we stop providing them weapons in hopes that they be more inclined to negotiate you have misjudged the situation and you would have us only condemn people to murder and horror as punishment for your failure to analyze what is ultimately a simple situation explained in simple terms by Putin's own words on the topic. Furthermore you seem to have analyzed the article in question based mostly on the title as the shallow straw man you scoff at seems absent from the actual reporting. In fact it does a better job than you of dismissing the argument you foist upon it. >----------------------------- “We do not have nor do we want a system where the United States government monitors private internet chats,” Glenn Gerstell, the former general counsel of the National Security Agency, told NBC on Wednesday. On Discord, some servers already joke about the possibility of being surreptitiously infiltrated by the government. Using a word first coined on the anything-goes message board 4chan, people commonly accuse others of being “glowies” — federal agents whose out-of-place behaviors are so obvious that they practically glow. But surveilling gamer chatrooms might also end up pushing away the same young recruits the military desperately needs, all for questionable practical gain: The internet is full of ways to anonymously share images, videos and documents. >----------------------------- I invite you to read more of it as its actually fairly well thought out

Izkata 4y ago
> Only Ukraine can do that and she has little incentive to do so given what has and will be done to its people and the unwillingness of Russia to keep prior settlements in 1991 or 2014. They were a year ago: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-boris-johnson-business-24cd8742435251d9dd46bcc29302bd13 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-zelenskyy-kyiv-bor...

unusualmonkey 4y ago

If you want to simp for genocidal dictators please at least be original.

iudqnolq 4y ago

Please give an example of a document that reveals greater US involvement than was known previously. The documents I've seen revealed Ukrainian secrets. For example, they revealed Ukrainian casualty numbers and Ukrainian estimates of Russian casualty numbers. Everyone paying attention before this leak knew that the US is giving significant support in the form of advice, money, and arms. Everyone knew that the US has a small number of military personnel in the embassy but isn't fighting in the war. Some people think this is bad, but it's not a secret.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ifyoubuildit 4y ago
For example: "Ukraine war: Leak shows Western special forces on the ground" (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65245065 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65245065) You can say "everyone knew that" but nobody could prove it before.
- iudqnolq 4y ago
  I stand corrected. The presence of US troops in the Kyiv embassy was revealed last November, but the fact they are special forces is new.
- pelorat 4y ago
  Well we knew that, we also know they are there mostly training Ukrainian soldiers, and some might be tasked with embassy duty as most countries (unlike USA) don't protect their embassies with military presence. You're not going to find any NATO SoF near the front-lines.
- mjreacher 4y ago
  They literally openly admitted it last November. You can say the special forces part is new but that isn't the point being made by most, which is about US troop boots on the ground, and the military never says which specific type of troops are there anyway for operational security reasons. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-military-inspectors-ukraine-keep-track-weapons-equipment-rcna54891 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-military-inspectors-...

KMag 4y ago

Back when I got my DoD security clearance, I remember my employer's security officer sitting down with me and going through a PowerPoint together, and then witnessing my signing of some paperwork. As I remember, one of the points in that paperwork is that a warrant wasn't required to tap my phone, etc. (and also, I'd go to prison if I shared anything improperly). Am I misremembering? Maybe it was only that no warrant was required to monitor me on company systems, but (it's been 20 years), I thought I was generally signing away an expectation of privacy in exchange for access to classified information. (So, indirectly gaining extra pay, job security, and access to interesting technology in exchange for signing away privacy... not sure how I feel about that 20 years later, but it seemed a good trade at the time.) If I'm remembering things properly, no extra legislation is necessary for monitoring people with DoD security clearances. Even if monitoring were warranted, I believe these powers already exist to cover this case, and any extra legislation is a power grab.

warner25 4y ago
> Am I misremembering? Maybe it was only that no warrant was required to monitor me on company systems... I've only been in uniform, not worked for private defense contractors, but it should be this. On government (classified or not) systems, websites, etc. you're subject to monitoring, and a prominent banner reminds you of this every time you logon. All web traffic goes through a proxy that breaks TLS to do inspection. Your .mil email and files on your government device(s) get scanned. Even a low level (like, 19 year-old E-2 with a Sec+ certificate) sysadmin can manage accounts in Active Directory and browse any machine on the domain through C$ administrative shares. This doesn't apply to your personal devices unless you've brought them somewhere that they shouldn't go. The paperwork is mostly a non-disclosure agreement.

pelorat 4y ago

We don't want Russian gas any more. We don't want any gas. I sadly live in a country where 50% of the power generation comes from LNG, but fuck that. We need to work to make it 0%.

lotusmars 4y ago

[flagged]

clouddrover 4y ago

> Lord forbid the Ukraine war end in some kind of negotiated settlement No negotiation is possible when Russia's starting position is that Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real people. Putin's held that position for years: https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russian-empire-says-ukraine-not-real-country-2022-2?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-denies-reviving-russia... The way the war ends is Russia is first defeated and the negotiations that will then follow will be about the reparations Russia must pay and the war criminals Russia must extradite.