6 ms·

Germany be like - let's do exactly opposite of what makes sense in today's world Green party is really ruining and I'm amazed people still give them votes

by nixass 4y ago

leipert 4y ago
To be fair: Merkel (so conservatives and liberals) made the decision in 2011 after Fukushima in a move to align with popular sentiment.
- DrBazza 4y ago
  Unfortunately popular sentiment doesn't equate to scientific fact. Nuclear power is cleaner, safer and less environmentally damaging than fossil fuels in every way. Still, since when have politicians ever let facts get in the way of campaigning for power?
  - tuukkah 4y ago
    We are not choosing between nuclear and fossils - we have chosen renewables. Clarification: I'm not German. I'm talking globally and long term. What's happening right now in Germany is just a blip. The big picture: > Clean power growth is likely to exceed electricity demand growth in 2023; this would be the first year for this to happen outside of a recession. With average growth in electricity demand and clean power, we forecast that 2023 will see a small fall in fossil generation (-47 TWh, -0.3%), with bigger falls in subsequent years as wind and solar grow further. That would mean 2022 hit “peak” emissions. A new era of falling power sector emissions is close. https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/global-electricity-review-2023/ https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/global-electrici...
    - pantalaimon 4y ago
      Still coal fired plants are supposed to run until 2038
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      You chose to shut down perfectly working nuclear reactors and keep burning coal. You COULD and SHOULD have replaced coal with nuclear. https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/28/the-iron-law-of-electricity-strikes-again-germany-re-opens-five-lignite-fired-power-plants/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/28/the-iron...
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      You thought you chose renewables. You actually chose coal, LNG, and buying power from France.
      - fabian2k 4y ago
        Germany exports more power than it imports. And France is only a part of the imports, with 2022 being much lower due to their issues with the nuclear power plants. https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2023/03/PD23_090_43312.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2023/03...
        pclmulqdq 4y ago
        Large power exports come necessarily from using non-dispatchable forms of power generation like solar and wind. Other people who can turn off their power plants will buy yours rather than burning their own resources. In other words, the amount of power a nation exports means very little about how you keep the lights on.
        TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        So you can import it at winter for much more $$$ than you sold it at summer.
    - polotics 4y ago
      We have not chosen renewables: if you compute how much oil for transport, coal for Chinese electricity, etc. you need to produce solar panels, as well as massive mining impacts, you realise that the new renewables (solar and wind, not hydro) are a complete dead end with current technology. A renewables world made only with renewable end-to-end production looks more like the year 1800 than any Green knows or would be prepared to admit.
  - benfortuna 4y ago
    "Nuclear power is cleaner [..] than fossil fuels in every way." Actually not every way though.. nuclear waste has to go somewhere.
    - pantalaimon 4y ago
      Nuclear waste doesn’t cause climate change and it doesn’t go anywhere - this is not an urgent problem.
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >Actually not every way though.. nuclear waste has to go somewhere. I don't understand your argument; of course waste must go somewhere. Nuclear power, with its waste, is still cleaner than fossil fuels in every way.
      - DrBazza 4y ago
        > nuclear waste has to go somewhere. My stock comment for that is: bury it deep and with signs; if we've lost the ability to read the signs, we've lost the ability to dig deep and endanger ourselves.
        Nicksil 4y ago
        Indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warnin...
      - benfortuna 4y ago
        I'm not saying nuclear is worse than fossil fuels, just that we don't know the future impact of waste with such a long half-life. So I don't think it's demonstrably cleaner "in every way".
        Nicksil 4y ago
        >I'm not saying nuclear is worse than fossil fuels, just that we don't know the future impact of waste with such a long half-life. No, we've got a pretty good idea. >So I don't think it's demonstrably cleaner "in every way". It is, objectively.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  Too bad the populous are idiots.
- mannykannot 4y ago
  ...made the decision in 2011... That does not mean the plan has to be followed through without amendment today - in fact, it cannot be, unless restarting lignite-burning generators was part of the original plan. Responsibility for this development lies squarely on all those who chose this path today (and regardless of party affiliation.)
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > after Fukushima in a move to align with popular sentiment. So they were populists?
tuukkah 4y ago
This was not decided by the greens only. From the article: > Yet the Fukushima nuclear disaster in Japan in 2011 caused German sentiments to shift strongly against atomic energy once more, and Ms. Merkel abruptly reversed course. Her government passed a law to phase out Germany’s 17 nuclear reactors by the end of 2022. Similarly in the neighbouring Austria, nuclear power is prohibited in the constitution, not by a political party.
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  You can still visit the nuclear power plants that were built but never switched on https://youtu.be/WUVZbBBHrI4 https://youtu.be/WUVZbBBHrI4
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  > in the neighbouring Austria, nuclear power is prohibited Which is funny, because we actually built a pretty much complete nuclear power plant, Zwentendorf. It‘s now a unique museum. A vote of just 50.47 % ruined our radiant future... Also we do have one research reactor left right in the city. I was blessed enough to visit it once.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    > A vote of just 50.47 % ruined our radiant future... There really should be a rule that important decisions can't pass with a tiny majority
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > There really should be a rule that important decisions can’t pass with a tiny majority There are at least two major problems with such a rule: (1) On an important question, “yes” and “no” are both important decisions. (2) Who decides what is “important”? You can make a rule that is closer to “you can’t make specific kinds of deviations from the status quo without a supermajority vote”, but that’s…very different from “important decisions”.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
HyperSane 4y ago
Surprised you are getting downvoted, you are correct. This is an incredibly stupid thing to do.
- Timon3 4y ago
  They are probably being downvoted because they are pinning the decisions lead by CDU on the Green party. If they didn't misrepresent the situation they most likely would not get downvoted. Funny how that works, no?
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    The CDU may have made the decision but the Greens were in favor of it, were they not?
    - Lacerda69 4y ago
      because someone else supported the idea they are now responsible? weird take on how government should be held accountable.
      - HyperSane 4y ago
        The Greens fervent opposition to nuclear is a pretty big reason for why it was so unpopular in Germany.
        Lacerda69 4y ago
        Its the other way around; it was very unpopular, which is why the Green party formed in the first place.
    - Quarrel 4y ago
      The German Greens were literally founded out of the anti-nuclear power movement. Yes, they're against it.
    - Timon3 4y ago
mrweasel 4y ago
Danish TV just had a documentary, regarding nuclear power. It's basically the "reporter" who is reconsidering his life long hostility towards nuclear power. In the documentary there's an interesting point: The opponents never wanted coal either, they firmly believe that a no to nuclear was a yes to solar and wind. That part of the message just got lost, and it was not particularly realistic either. It's incredibly naive, but it's the same mentality in present day nuclear opponents. They still fail to see that a no to nuclear is often a yes to coal, oil and gas.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Actually CDU, the christian democrats, were in charge when this was decided and for most of the period while they were planning and executing that decision. Angela Merkel was in charge for 16 years until handing over to the new coalition months before the Ukrainian invasion. The CDU is a conservative party. And seriously, trying to pass off Angela Merkel as a tree hugging hippy would be quite a feat. The thing is, this was a widely supported decision that has by and large gone through without a lot of opposition in a country that reliably votes for conservatives and moderates to lead them. Also, none of the bad stuff that people predicted would happen has actually happened. No blackouts. No massive increase in coal/gas usage. None of that seems to be happening.

Germany be like - let's do exactly opposite of what makes sense in today's world Green party is really ruining and I'm amazed people still give them votes

by nixass 4y ago

Germany be like - let's do exactly opposite of what makes sense in today's world Green party is really ruining and I'm amazed people still give them votes

leipert 4y ago

To be fair: Merkel (so conservatives and liberals) made the decision in 2011 after Fukushima in a move to align with popular sentiment.

DrBazza 4y ago
Unfortunately popular sentiment doesn't equate to scientific fact. Nuclear power is cleaner, safer and less environmentally damaging than fossil fuels in every way. Still, since when have politicians ever let facts get in the way of campaigning for power?
- tuukkah 4y ago
  We are not choosing between nuclear and fossils - we have chosen renewables. Clarification: I'm not German. I'm talking globally and long term. What's happening right now in Germany is just a blip. The big picture: > Clean power growth is likely to exceed electricity demand growth in 2023; this would be the first year for this to happen outside of a recession. With average growth in electricity demand and clean power, we forecast that 2023 will see a small fall in fossil generation (-47 TWh, -0.3%), with bigger falls in subsequent years as wind and solar grow further. That would mean 2022 hit “peak” emissions. A new era of falling power sector emissions is close. https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/global-electricity-review-2023/ https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/global-electrici...
  - pantalaimon 4y ago
    Still coal fired plants are supposed to run until 2038
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    You chose to shut down perfectly working nuclear reactors and keep burning coal. You COULD and SHOULD have replaced coal with nuclear. https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/28/the-iron-law-of-electricity-strikes-again-germany-re-opens-five-lignite-fired-power-plants/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/28/the-iron...
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    You thought you chose renewables. You actually chose coal, LNG, and buying power from France.
    - fabian2k 4y ago
      Germany exports more power than it imports. And France is only a part of the imports, with 2022 being much lower due to their issues with the nuclear power plants. https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2023/03/PD23_090_43312.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2023/03...
      - pclmulqdq 4y ago
        Large power exports come necessarily from using non-dispatchable forms of power generation like solar and wind. Other people who can turn off their power plants will buy yours rather than burning their own resources. In other words, the amount of power a nation exports means very little about how you keep the lights on.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        So you can import it at winter for much more $$$ than you sold it at summer.
  - polotics 4y ago
    We have not chosen renewables: if you compute how much oil for transport, coal for Chinese electricity, etc. you need to produce solar panels, as well as massive mining impacts, you realise that the new renewables (solar and wind, not hydro) are a complete dead end with current technology. A renewables world made only with renewable end-to-end production looks more like the year 1800 than any Green knows or would be prepared to admit.
- benfortuna 4y ago
  "Nuclear power is cleaner [..] than fossil fuels in every way." Actually not every way though.. nuclear waste has to go somewhere.
  - pantalaimon 4y ago
    Nuclear waste doesn’t cause climate change and it doesn’t go anywhere - this is not an urgent problem.
  - Nicksil 4y ago
    >Actually not every way though.. nuclear waste has to go somewhere. I don't understand your argument; of course waste must go somewhere. Nuclear power, with its waste, is still cleaner than fossil fuels in every way.
    - DrBazza 4y ago
      > nuclear waste has to go somewhere. My stock comment for that is: bury it deep and with signs; if we've lost the ability to read the signs, we've lost the ability to dig deep and endanger ourselves.
      - Nicksil 4y ago
        Indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warning_messages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_nuclear_waste_warnin...
    - benfortuna 4y ago
      I'm not saying nuclear is worse than fossil fuels, just that we don't know the future impact of waste with such a long half-life. So I don't think it's demonstrably cleaner "in every way".
      - Nicksil 4y ago
        >I'm not saying nuclear is worse than fossil fuels, just that we don't know the future impact of waste with such a long half-life. No, we've got a pretty good idea. >So I don't think it's demonstrably cleaner "in every way". It is, objectively.
HyperSane 4y ago
Too bad the populous are idiots.
mannykannot 4y ago
...made the decision in 2011... That does not mean the plan has to be followed through without amendment today - in fact, it cannot be, unless restarting lignite-burning generators was part of the original plan. Responsibility for this development lies squarely on all those who chose this path today (and regardless of party affiliation.)
ekianjo 4y ago
> after Fukushima in a move to align with popular sentiment. So they were populists?

tuukkah 4y ago

This was not decided by the greens only. From the article: > Yet the Fukushima nuclear disaster in Japan in 2011 caused German sentiments to shift strongly against atomic energy once more, and Ms. Merkel abruptly reversed course. Her government passed a law to phase out Germany’s 17 nuclear reactors by the end of 2022. Similarly in the neighbouring Austria, nuclear power is prohibited in the constitution, not by a political party.

pantalaimon 4y ago
You can still visit the nuclear power plants that were built but never switched on https://youtu.be/WUVZbBBHrI4 https://youtu.be/WUVZbBBHrI4
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
> in the neighbouring Austria, nuclear power is prohibited Which is funny, because we actually built a pretty much complete nuclear power plant, Zwentendorf. It‘s now a unique museum. A vote of just 50.47 % ruined our radiant future... Also we do have one research reactor left right in the city. I was blessed enough to visit it once.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  > A vote of just 50.47 % ruined our radiant future... There really should be a rule that important decisions can't pass with a tiny majority
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > There really should be a rule that important decisions can’t pass with a tiny majority There are at least two major problems with such a rule: (1) On an important question, “yes” and “no” are both important decisions. (2) Who decides what is “important”? You can make a rule that is closer to “you can’t make specific kinds of deviations from the status quo without a supermajority vote”, but that’s…very different from “important decisions”.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

HyperSane 4y ago

Surprised you are getting downvoted, you are correct. This is an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Timon3 4y ago
They are probably being downvoted because they are pinning the decisions lead by CDU on the Green party. If they didn't misrepresent the situation they most likely would not get downvoted. Funny how that works, no?
- HyperSane 4y ago
  The CDU may have made the decision but the Greens were in favor of it, were they not?
  - Lacerda69 4y ago
    because someone else supported the idea they are now responsible? weird take on how government should be held accountable.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      The Greens fervent opposition to nuclear is a pretty big reason for why it was so unpopular in Germany.
      - Lacerda69 4y ago
        Its the other way around; it was very unpopular, which is why the Green party formed in the first place.
  - Quarrel 4y ago
    The German Greens were literally founded out of the anti-nuclear power movement. Yes, they're against it.
  - Timon3 4y ago

mrweasel 4y ago

Danish TV just had a documentary, regarding nuclear power. It's basically the "reporter" who is reconsidering his life long hostility towards nuclear power. In the documentary there's an interesting point: The opponents never wanted coal either, they firmly believe that a no to nuclear was a yes to solar and wind. That part of the message just got lost, and it was not particularly realistic either. It's incredibly naive, but it's the same mentality in present day nuclear opponents. They still fail to see that a no to nuclear is often a yes to coal, oil and gas.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

Actually CDU, the christian democrats, were in charge when this was decided and for most of the period while they were planning and executing that decision. Angela Merkel was in charge for 16 years until handing over to the new coalition months before the Ukrainian invasion. The CDU is a conservative party. And seriously, trying to pass off Angela Merkel as a tree hugging hippy would be quite a feat. The thing is, this was a widely supported decision that has by and large gone through without a lot of opposition in a country that reliably votes for conservatives and moderates to lead them. Also, none of the bad stuff that people predicted would happen has actually happened. No blackouts. No massive increase in coal/gas usage. None of that seems to be happening.