6 ms·

Pretty sure anything but the last two innings of a baseball game (if it is close in score) was already boring. Pacing is already generally slow. So slow that it

Pretty sure anything but the last two innings of a baseball game (if it is close in score) was already boring. Pacing is already generally slow. So slow that it is super common to have all sorts of audience distractions (kiss cams, celebrity look-a-like cams, etc). If they wanted to make is more exciting to watch, they need to take a page from the american football clones (shortened field, reduced players, easier scoring). Imagine if the game was shortened to 4 innings, no more home runs (hang a driving range golf net), no more foul balls (every hit counts, plus that big golf net goes all around the field). It would be a much more fast paced game, and rotund powerhouse smasher types replaced with more athletic, speedy types. Still need hits to get on base, but running the bases becomes much more important with the always force that happens with every-hit-is-a-hit.

Waterluvian 3y ago
Is that the right move though? We can make any event exciting. Implementation is rarely the hard part. (funny how closely this parallels a chat I had with one of my engineers this week) I like Baseball because it’s relaxed and it’s on for 3 hours and I can have it in the background, looking over on occasion whenever I hear something exciting. If I wanted a sport of non-stop action that demands my full attention, I’d watch hockey. MLB is walking a tightrope right now of evolving to be better at what it wants to be, and to keep people engaged (it’s a business after all), but not to transform into something entirely different. The customers likely wouldn’t be happy if they all got what they wanted.
- davidjones332 3y ago
  Agree , good post
- LeanderK 3y ago
  > it’s a business after all is it? I thought those sports organisations are not businesses but associations of the clubs. Is it different in the US?
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    The article is basically about professional baseball, which by definition is a business. I don’t think non-professional leagues have this problem.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    They’re trade associations which effectively represent the interests of the teams/clubs which constitute them.
- okwhateverdude 3y ago
  That's a fair point. The changes they did make are definitely steering the large container ship with very slight course heading adjustments. But the cynic in me says that the audience is not the actual customer, the advertisers are. If they were to fundamentally change the sport in a way that would drive viewership up significantly, those extra advertising monies would easily paper over the loss from disgruntled audience. The article makes a good point about misalignment here. Teams want to win (winning helps sell merch), but the league wants to sell ads (ads need worthwhile content). If these incentives were better aligned, maybe we'd end up with a less boring game that doesn't end up as background noise.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    I agree. The business goal is to sell ads, tickets, hotdogs, and beer. I think they’re executing on profitability but in a cautious way. Too much sudden change can definitely kill a sport, like it can any product.
    - nobody9999 3y ago
      >I agree. The business goal is to sell ads, tickets, hotdogs, and beer. I think they’re executing on profitability but in a cautious way. Too much sudden change can definitely kill a sport, like it can any product. That's a serious oversimplification of MLB teams' business models. Yes, ticket sales, marketing deals, food, beer and merchandise do make some money. However, the bulk of the money made by the teams (MLB is, as others have mentioned, a trade association which has been given special exemptions from anti-trust law) is from media deals with the major networks and "Regional Sports Networks" (RSN) which handle all the ads and broadcast details. A few of the teams have their own RSNs, but most rely on third parties for that. In fact, one of the biggest (with rights to broadcast 14 of the 30 MLB teams) just went bankrupt. For more information about that, and some really good "inside baseball" (see what I did there?) read this article[0] from The Athletic, published just yesterday. [0] https://theathletic.com/4409306/2023/04/14/mlb-streaming-tv-blackouts/ https://theathletic.com/4409306/2023/04/14/mlb-streaming-tv-...
      - 3y ago
jrs235 3y ago
Check out the rules that the Savannah Bananas play by with "Banana Ball": https://thesavannahbananas.com/bananaball/ https://thesavannahbananas.com/bananaball/
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  I always assumed they were like the Globetrotters: more choreographed entertainment than actual competition. Are they actually playing competitively, or are the rules more like stage directions?
  - okwhateverdude 3y ago
    Seems like it is a little of both according to this article on mlb.com: https://www.mlb.com/news/savannah-bananas-the-dancing-globetrotters-of-baseball-explained https://www.mlb.com/news/savannah-bananas-the-dancing-globet...
- cbm-vic-20 3y ago
  > Foul balls caught by fans are counted as outs. Wow!
nkrisc 3y ago
Just reduce the amount of time between pitches and batters and I’d be happy. The amount of time a three strike out inning can take is absurd.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  They have this year. A lot of rule changes were already implemented to eliminate the super tedious waiting bits.
  - thewildginger 3y ago
    And limiting player rotations will help. It ruined baseball for all leftie hitters completely. For any HN readers, go look up this ridiculous practice. It will impress the number cruncher types, and it will impress you how much the TV companies practically cover it up so people think the game is still fair.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >Just reduce the amount of time between pitches and batters and I’d be happy. The amount of time a three strike out inning can take is absurd. Ask, and ye shall receive[0]. [0] https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2023-rule-changes-pitch-timer-larger-bases-shifts https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2023-rule-changes-pitch-timer-l...
  - nkrisc 3y ago
    I haven't watched baseball since the 2016 World Series, so I might give it another go after all. I read through the rule changes and I can see how they might upset some "real" fans, but as a "fake" fan they sound fantastic.
    - nobody9999 3y ago
      > I haven't watched baseball since the 2016 World Series, so I might give it another go after all. I read through the rule changes and I can see how they might upset some "real" fans, but as a "fake" fan they sound fantastic. As a "real" fan myself, I think it's great! Watching a batter step out of the box, spit, adjust their batting gloves and/or their athletic supporter, take a couple of shadow swings and then step back in after every pitch doesn't make the game better. Nor does a pitcher who stalks around the mound for half a minute, then shakes off the catcher six or seven times (it's almost always going to be a fastball when that happens anyway), sets, then steps off the rubber and goes through the whole rigamarole again. Yuck! The larger bases and limits on throws to bases are fine, and banning the "shift" is wonderful! It used to be (in fact, the "shift"[9] was first deployed against CY Williams[10] in the 1920s, but was much, much more famously used against Ted Williams[8], as he refused to do as Wee Willie Keeler[0] counseled and "hit 'em where they ain't.") that hitters would change their approach, i.e. "situational hitting"[1], but with the rise of analytics and focus on "three true outcomes"[2] and "launch angle"[3], using the shift became ever more effective because most hitters started just swinging for the fences every. single. time. Which, combined with the "shift" makes watching the game much less enjoyable, even if it does provide some statistical[4] advantage. Sure, I'd love to see my team win more games, make deep post-season runs and, hopefully even win the World Series. That said, my team doesn't mail me a check when they win a game or the World Series. As such, I'd much rather see dynamic play (these guys really are amazing athletes) without the focus on the "three true outcomes." There are two rule changes (not implemented this year, but during the pandemic and since retained) that really chap my ass: the designated hitter[5] in the National League and the "ghost runner"[6] on second base during extra innings[7]. So, no. It doesn't upset real fans (in fact, most of the response has been really positive so far -- not least because games are ~30 minutes shorter than last year) who really appreciate the game, IMNSHO. [0] https://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quokeel.shtml https://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quokeel.shtml [1] https://baseball.tools/baseball-situational-hitting/ https://baseball.tools/baseball-situational-hitting/ [2] https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-growth-of-three-true-outcomes-from-usenet-joke-to-baseball-flashpoint/ https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-growth-of-three-true-ou... [3] https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/launch-angle https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/launch-angle [4] If the game itself is the "meat and potatoes," statistics is the "gravy" everything is steeped in. Many, many decisions are made both in-game and to evaluate players based on statistics; and player greatness (e.g. Hall of Fame inductions), it permeates almost every aspect of the game. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter [6] https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-ghost-runner-rule-league-makes-extra-innings-change-permanent-for-regular-season-games-per-report/ https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-ghost-runner-rule-lea... [7] https://www.baseballbible.net/what-are-extra-innings/ https://www.baseballbible.net/what-are-extra-innings/ [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_shift#History_in_Major_League_Baseball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_shift#History_in_Major... [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cy_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cy_Williams
rcarr 3y ago
They did something similar to what you said with cricket and had some successful results. A traditional test cricket match takes place over four innings which can last up to 5 days at which point the game gets abandoned as a draw. In an effort to make the game more exciting and get more viewers they introduced Twenty20 (where each team has a single innings with a maximum of 20 overs each) and T10 (single innings of 10 overs each) which means games are dramatically shortened to less than 3 hours and 90 mins respectively. The result is a lot less tactical play, with batters frequently going for six (equivalent of home run) and a much more exciting match for viewers. I imagine some clever rule tweaks could do the same thing for baseball.
mauvehaus 3y ago
“Baseball is a slow, sluggish game, with frequent and trivial interruptions, offering the spectator many opportunities to reflect at leisure upon the situation on the field: This is what a fan loves most about the game.” — Edward Abbey It has been suggested to me that the best way to enjoy baseball is on the radio, and I think I have to agree. All the crap you've listed largely doesn't happen across the radio. That said, as a Guardians fan who lives well outside the broadcast range of WTAM, it's been a while since I could enjoy a game on the radio. Perhaps they've managed to bring it down to the level of the TV broadcast now.
- throwaway6734 3y ago
  Mlb.tv offers radio subscriptions to all teams for $3 a month. Sadly you can't pay for a version with no advertisements
sbierwagen 3y ago
>no more home runs (hang a driving range golf net) Just call them fouls, like any other ball hit out of the field.
Spooky23 3y ago
That isn’t baseball. Baseball us all about tension. What your writing sounds a bit like cricket. Not a bad thing per se, but not baseball.

Waterluvian 3y ago

Is that the right move though? We can make any event exciting. Implementation is rarely the hard part. (funny how closely this parallels a chat I had with one of my engineers this week) I like Baseball because it’s relaxed and it’s on for 3 hours and I can have it in the background, looking over on occasion whenever I hear something exciting. If I wanted a sport of non-stop action that demands my full attention, I’d watch hockey. MLB is walking a tightrope right now of evolving to be better at what it wants to be, and to keep people engaged (it’s a business after all), but not to transform into something entirely different. The customers likely wouldn’t be happy if they all got what they wanted.

davidjones332 3y ago
Agree , good post
LeanderK 3y ago
> it’s a business after all is it? I thought those sports organisations are not businesses but associations of the clubs. Is it different in the US?
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  The article is basically about professional baseball, which by definition is a business. I don’t think non-professional leagues have this problem.
- ghaff 3y ago
  They’re trade associations which effectively represent the interests of the teams/clubs which constitute them.
okwhateverdude 3y ago
That's a fair point. The changes they did make are definitely steering the large container ship with very slight course heading adjustments. But the cynic in me says that the audience is not the actual customer, the advertisers are. If they were to fundamentally change the sport in a way that would drive viewership up significantly, those extra advertising monies would easily paper over the loss from disgruntled audience. The article makes a good point about misalignment here. Teams want to win (winning helps sell merch), but the league wants to sell ads (ads need worthwhile content). If these incentives were better aligned, maybe we'd end up with a less boring game that doesn't end up as background noise.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  I agree. The business goal is to sell ads, tickets, hotdogs, and beer. I think they’re executing on profitability but in a cautious way. Too much sudden change can definitely kill a sport, like it can any product.
  - nobody9999 3y ago
    >I agree. The business goal is to sell ads, tickets, hotdogs, and beer. I think they’re executing on profitability but in a cautious way. Too much sudden change can definitely kill a sport, like it can any product. That's a serious oversimplification of MLB teams' business models. Yes, ticket sales, marketing deals, food, beer and merchandise do make some money. However, the bulk of the money made by the teams (MLB is, as others have mentioned, a trade association which has been given special exemptions from anti-trust law) is from media deals with the major networks and "Regional Sports Networks" (RSN) which handle all the ads and broadcast details. A few of the teams have their own RSNs, but most rely on third parties for that. In fact, one of the biggest (with rights to broadcast 14 of the 30 MLB teams) just went bankrupt. For more information about that, and some really good "inside baseball" (see what I did there?) read this article[0] from The Athletic, published just yesterday. [0] https://theathletic.com/4409306/2023/04/14/mlb-streaming-tv-blackouts/ https://theathletic.com/4409306/2023/04/14/mlb-streaming-tv-...
    - 3y ago

jrs235 3y ago

Check out the rules that the Savannah Bananas play by with "Banana Ball": https://thesavannahbananas.com/bananaball/ https://thesavannahbananas.com/bananaball/

Waterluvian 3y ago
I always assumed they were like the Globetrotters: more choreographed entertainment than actual competition. Are they actually playing competitively, or are the rules more like stage directions?
- okwhateverdude 3y ago
  Seems like it is a little of both according to this article on mlb.com: https://www.mlb.com/news/savannah-bananas-the-dancing-globetrotters-of-baseball-explained https://www.mlb.com/news/savannah-bananas-the-dancing-globet...
cbm-vic-20 3y ago
> Foul balls caught by fans are counted as outs. Wow!

nkrisc 3y ago

Just reduce the amount of time between pitches and batters and I’d be happy. The amount of time a three strike out inning can take is absurd.

Waterluvian 3y ago
They have this year. A lot of rule changes were already implemented to eliminate the super tedious waiting bits.
- thewildginger 3y ago
  And limiting player rotations will help. It ruined baseball for all leftie hitters completely. For any HN readers, go look up this ridiculous practice. It will impress the number cruncher types, and it will impress you how much the TV companies practically cover it up so people think the game is still fair.
nobody9999 3y ago
>Just reduce the amount of time between pitches and batters and I’d be happy. The amount of time a three strike out inning can take is absurd. Ask, and ye shall receive[0]. [0] https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2023-rule-changes-pitch-timer-larger-bases-shifts https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2023-rule-changes-pitch-timer-l...
- nkrisc 3y ago
  I haven't watched baseball since the 2016 World Series, so I might give it another go after all. I read through the rule changes and I can see how they might upset some "real" fans, but as a "fake" fan they sound fantastic.
  - nobody9999 3y ago
    > I haven't watched baseball since the 2016 World Series, so I might give it another go after all. I read through the rule changes and I can see how they might upset some "real" fans, but as a "fake" fan they sound fantastic. As a "real" fan myself, I think it's great! Watching a batter step out of the box, spit, adjust their batting gloves and/or their athletic supporter, take a couple of shadow swings and then step back in after every pitch doesn't make the game better. Nor does a pitcher who stalks around the mound for half a minute, then shakes off the catcher six or seven times (it's almost always going to be a fastball when that happens anyway), sets, then steps off the rubber and goes through the whole rigamarole again. Yuck! The larger bases and limits on throws to bases are fine, and banning the "shift" is wonderful! It used to be (in fact, the "shift"[9] was first deployed against CY Williams[10] in the 1920s, but was much, much more famously used against Ted Williams[8], as he refused to do as Wee Willie Keeler[0] counseled and "hit 'em where they ain't.") that hitters would change their approach, i.e. "situational hitting"[1], but with the rise of analytics and focus on "three true outcomes"[2] and "launch angle"[3], using the shift became ever more effective because most hitters started just swinging for the fences every. single. time. Which, combined with the "shift" makes watching the game much less enjoyable, even if it does provide some statistical[4] advantage. Sure, I'd love to see my team win more games, make deep post-season runs and, hopefully even win the World Series. That said, my team doesn't mail me a check when they win a game or the World Series. As such, I'd much rather see dynamic play (these guys really are amazing athletes) without the focus on the "three true outcomes." There are two rule changes (not implemented this year, but during the pandemic and since retained) that really chap my ass: the designated hitter[5] in the National League and the "ghost runner"[6] on second base during extra innings[7]. So, no. It doesn't upset real fans (in fact, most of the response has been really positive so far -- not least because games are ~30 minutes shorter than last year) who really appreciate the game, IMNSHO. [0] https://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quokeel.shtml https://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quokeel.shtml [1] https://baseball.tools/baseball-situational-hitting/ https://baseball.tools/baseball-situational-hitting/ [2] https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-growth-of-three-true-outcomes-from-usenet-joke-to-baseball-flashpoint/ https://sabr.org/journal/article/the-growth-of-three-true-ou... [3] https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/launch-angle https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/launch-angle [4] If the game itself is the "meat and potatoes," statistics is the "gravy" everything is steeped in. Many, many decisions are made both in-game and to evaluate players based on statistics; and player greatness (e.g. Hall of Fame inductions), it permeates almost every aspect of the game. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter [6] https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-ghost-runner-rule-league-makes-extra-innings-change-permanent-for-regular-season-games-per-report/ https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-ghost-runner-rule-lea... [7] https://www.baseballbible.net/what-are-extra-innings/ https://www.baseballbible.net/what-are-extra-innings/ [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_shift#History_in_Major_League_Baseball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infield_shift#History_in_Major... [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cy_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cy_Williams

rcarr 3y ago

They did something similar to what you said with cricket and had some successful results. A traditional test cricket match takes place over four innings which can last up to 5 days at which point the game gets abandoned as a draw. In an effort to make the game more exciting and get more viewers they introduced Twenty20 (where each team has a single innings with a maximum of 20 overs each) and T10 (single innings of 10 overs each) which means games are dramatically shortened to less than 3 hours and 90 mins respectively. The result is a lot less tactical play, with batters frequently going for six (equivalent of home run) and a much more exciting match for viewers. I imagine some clever rule tweaks could do the same thing for baseball.

mauvehaus 3y ago

“Baseball is a slow, sluggish game, with frequent and trivial interruptions, offering the spectator many opportunities to reflect at leisure upon the situation on the field: This is what a fan loves most about the game.” — Edward Abbey It has been suggested to me that the best way to enjoy baseball is on the radio, and I think I have to agree. All the crap you've listed largely doesn't happen across the radio. That said, as a Guardians fan who lives well outside the broadcast range of WTAM, it's been a while since I could enjoy a game on the radio. Perhaps they've managed to bring it down to the level of the TV broadcast now.

throwaway6734 3y ago
Mlb.tv offers radio subscriptions to all teams for $3 a month. Sadly you can't pay for a version with no advertisements

sbierwagen 3y ago

>no more home runs (hang a driving range golf net) Just call them fouls, like any other ball hit out of the field.

Spooky23 3y ago

That isn’t baseball. Baseball us all about tension. What your writing sounds a bit like cricket. Not a bad thing per se, but not baseball.