5 ms·

That's likely because given the publicly available information at the time, no narrative was obviously anything, because no details beyond Bob Lee being found s

by zen_1 3y ago

That's likely because given the publicly available information at the time, no narrative was obviously anything, because no details beyond Bob Lee being found stabbed and dead were known. The cause could have been (with equal evidence for each case) aliens, mossad, or a cooking accident, but people were quick to project their biases onto the situation and jump into flamewars or political attacks based on literally no information other than a man having died.

asdfman123 3y ago
But my point was that the “random crazed homeless assailant” guess (or however you want to phrase it) was every bit as much speculation, and frankly, less plausible speculation. And now is it not only speculation, it’s conclusively just a bad and irresponsible guess.
- sleepyjohn 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - asdfman123 3y ago
    But I think it’s even more important to recognize your own capability to be led and to succumb to groupthink. We all do it, to some degree or another.
  - nindalf 3y ago
    Account created 10 minutes before posting this. Friend, you clearly care more about these points than you let on.
- MrOwnPut 3y ago
  I don't think anyone said it was a "random crazed homeless" attack for sure. They just started sharing their stories about crime in San Fransisco from what I saw. The clarification of this specific event doesn't negate the recounts of others in the related issue of crime.
  - whateveracct 3y ago
    people were definitely assuming it was a random stabbing by a person unfamiliar with the victim people were acting like getting stabbed was just something that SF enables
    - MrOwnPut 3y ago
      From what I saw no-one was assuming on the specific event, but it was a fuel to let loose the stories of crime that many SF residents experienced and wanted to vent. But yes, ideally we don't ever assume, sure. But don't let that distract from actual problems that people vocalized. And let's also remember that this is a SUSPECT, so we are still assuming to this moment.
      - belltaco 3y ago
        > And let's also remember that this is a SUSPECT, so we are still assuming to this moment. In high profile cases like this, the prosecutor risks their entire career if the charges don't stick, so they usually have iron clad evidence or they wouldn't have made the arrest, and would've just waited for more evidence. The suspect hasn't even put in a not guilty plea during the arraignment. Mistakes do happen but I would say the odds are way in the favor of it being what is claimed.
        MrOwnPut 3y ago
        > but I would say the odds Yes, you are still assuming the odds currently. Innocent until proven guilty is the setup of the system.
        belltaco 3y ago
        Sure, that's the legal system which is judging the case, which we are not part of. From an article: > Footage retrieved by police from Millennium Tower shows Nima Momeni getting out of a white BMW Z4 after arriving at the high-rise at 8:31 p.m., according to court records. A little more than four hours later, at 12:39 a.m., Lee arrived at the tower. > Shortly after 2 a.m., both Lee and Nima Momeni were seen on camera taking an elevator to the building's lobby before getting into the suspect’s BMW and leaving. > Additional footage obtained by police shows Lee appearing to be stabbed under the Bay Bridge on Main Street, the documents say. The footage allegedly shows a BMW and the red glow of tail lights, suggesting the vehicle was parked. Based on the clothing they were wearing when leaving Millennium Tower, police believe Lee and Nima Momeni were the two people seen standing outside of the car. > At one point, the pair move closer together before Lee walks away, appearing to be wounded. Nima Momeni allegedly walks to a fence—which is where police found a silver and black knife, the suspected murder weapon—before getting back in the BMW and speeding away. > Lee was stabbed three times—once in the hip and twice in the chest, according to court records. One stab wound penetrated his heart and killed him. Police found what they believe to be the murder weapon, a 4-inch knife, in a nearby parking lot with blood on it. > “The defendant not only drove victim to a secluded area in the opposite direction of his hotel, but also brought a kitchen knife with him,” prosecutors said in court records. “Defendant did not use some type of pocket knife, but a cooking knife from an apartment kitchen. This was a planned and deliberate attack.” All this could very well be deepfakes I guess. Even if he's proven guilty you could say the same thing, because innocent people have been proven guilty in the past. So basically we can never ever assume who did the murder?
sammalloy 3y ago
> The cause could have been (with equal evidence for each case) aliens, mossad, or a cooking accident, but people were quick to project their biases onto the situation and jump into flamewars or political attacks based on literally no information other than a man having died. I’m going to push back on that. 70-80% of homicides in the US are committed by offenders known to the victims, with the small minority committed by strangers. People here are smart enough to know that and yet still pushed the "crazy homeless killer due to liberal policy" false narrative. That’s the problem.
- zen_1 3y ago
  I'm not sure I follow. So since ninety something percent of murders are committed by men aged 14-40 (not the real statistic, I'm going off of memory here) do you think we should assume with no evidence that any random murder was done by somebody from that demographic?
  - rovolo 3y ago
    > The cause could have been (with equal evidence for each case) aliens ... people were quick to project their biases onto the situation It would indicate a specific kind of commenter bias if, lacking any evidence, most comments on the original thread were about alien abductions and cow mutilations. Saying that it's weird that so many people talked about aliens doesn't necessarily mean we should suspect a human. Noting that we know a lot of murders were conducted by humans would be evidence that it was even weirder that there were so many comments about aliens.
  - sammalloy 3y ago
    I think you follow me just fine. We know that men commit most of these types of crimes, we know they are usually younger than 40, and we know that in the majority of cases, they are already acquainted with the victim. We also know the murder rate in Rincon Hill was zero before this happened, lending weight to the relationship between the victim and the offender. The tech narrative that blames liberal SF policies for crime were well underway before this crime occurred.

by zen_1 3y ago

asdfman123 3y ago

But my point was that the “random crazed homeless assailant” guess (or however you want to phrase it) was every bit as much speculation, and frankly, less plausible speculation. And now is it not only speculation, it’s conclusively just a bad and irresponsible guess.

sleepyjohn 3y ago
[flagged]
- asdfman123 3y ago
  But I think it’s even more important to recognize your own capability to be led and to succumb to groupthink. We all do it, to some degree or another.
- nindalf 3y ago
  Account created 10 minutes before posting this. Friend, you clearly care more about these points than you let on.
MrOwnPut 3y ago
I don't think anyone said it was a "random crazed homeless" attack for sure. They just started sharing their stories about crime in San Fransisco from what I saw. The clarification of this specific event doesn't negate the recounts of others in the related issue of crime.
- whateveracct 3y ago
  people were definitely assuming it was a random stabbing by a person unfamiliar with the victim people were acting like getting stabbed was just something that SF enables
  - MrOwnPut 3y ago
    From what I saw no-one was assuming on the specific event, but it was a fuel to let loose the stories of crime that many SF residents experienced and wanted to vent. But yes, ideally we don't ever assume, sure. But don't let that distract from actual problems that people vocalized. And let's also remember that this is a SUSPECT, so we are still assuming to this moment.
    - belltaco 3y ago
      > And let's also remember that this is a SUSPECT, so we are still assuming to this moment. In high profile cases like this, the prosecutor risks their entire career if the charges don't stick, so they usually have iron clad evidence or they wouldn't have made the arrest, and would've just waited for more evidence. The suspect hasn't even put in a not guilty plea during the arraignment. Mistakes do happen but I would say the odds are way in the favor of it being what is claimed.
      - MrOwnPut 3y ago
        > but I would say the odds Yes, you are still assuming the odds currently. Innocent until proven guilty is the setup of the system.
        belltaco 3y ago
        Sure, that's the legal system which is judging the case, which we are not part of. From an article: > Footage retrieved by police from Millennium Tower shows Nima Momeni getting out of a white BMW Z4 after arriving at the high-rise at 8:31 p.m., according to court records. A little more than four hours later, at 12:39 a.m., Lee arrived at the tower. > Shortly after 2 a.m., both Lee and Nima Momeni were seen on camera taking an elevator to the building's lobby before getting into the suspect’s BMW and leaving. > Additional footage obtained by police shows Lee appearing to be stabbed under the Bay Bridge on Main Street, the documents say. The footage allegedly shows a BMW and the red glow of tail lights, suggesting the vehicle was parked. Based on the clothing they were wearing when leaving Millennium Tower, police believe Lee and Nima Momeni were the two people seen standing outside of the car. > At one point, the pair move closer together before Lee walks away, appearing to be wounded. Nima Momeni allegedly walks to a fence—which is where police found a silver and black knife, the suspected murder weapon—before getting back in the BMW and speeding away. > Lee was stabbed three times—once in the hip and twice in the chest, according to court records. One stab wound penetrated his heart and killed him. Police found what they believe to be the murder weapon, a 4-inch knife, in a nearby parking lot with blood on it. > “The defendant not only drove victim to a secluded area in the opposite direction of his hotel, but also brought a kitchen knife with him,” prosecutors said in court records. “Defendant did not use some type of pocket knife, but a cooking knife from an apartment kitchen. This was a planned and deliberate attack.” All this could very well be deepfakes I guess. Even if he's proven guilty you could say the same thing, because innocent people have been proven guilty in the past. So basically we can never ever assume who did the murder?

sammalloy 3y ago

> The cause could have been (with equal evidence for each case) aliens, mossad, or a cooking accident, but people were quick to project their biases onto the situation and jump into flamewars or political attacks based on literally no information other than a man having died. I’m going to push back on that. 70-80% of homicides in the US are committed by offenders known to the victims, with the small minority committed by strangers. People here are smart enough to know that and yet still pushed the "crazy homeless killer due to liberal policy" false narrative. That’s the problem.

zen_1 3y ago
I'm not sure I follow. So since ninety something percent of murders are committed by men aged 14-40 (not the real statistic, I'm going off of memory here) do you think we should assume with no evidence that any random murder was done by somebody from that demographic?
- rovolo 3y ago
  > The cause could have been (with equal evidence for each case) aliens ... people were quick to project their biases onto the situation It would indicate a specific kind of commenter bias if, lacking any evidence, most comments on the original thread were about alien abductions and cow mutilations. Saying that it's weird that so many people talked about aliens doesn't necessarily mean we should suspect a human. Noting that we know a lot of murders were conducted by humans would be evidence that it was even weirder that there were so many comments about aliens.
- sammalloy 3y ago
  I think you follow me just fine. We know that men commit most of these types of crimes, we know they are usually younger than 40, and we know that in the majority of cases, they are already acquainted with the victim. We also know the murder rate in Rincon Hill was zero before this happened, lending weight to the relationship between the victim and the offender. The tech narrative that blames liberal SF policies for crime were well underway before this crime occurred.