4 ms·

Pretty terrible example to use for the lawlessness of SF. Everybody involved is wealthy, and the attack was totally personal. I knew there was a reason why I su

Pretty terrible example to use for the lawlessness of SF. Everybody involved is wealthy, and the attack was totally personal. I knew there was a reason why I suddenly stopped hearing about the stabbing; it isn't politically useful for that SF crowd anymore.

olliej 4y ago
oh yeah, it was super clear when the hyperventilating was coming solely from one sector of the SF populace, which happens to be the same subset that keeps make questionable claims about pretty much all the SF crime and homelessness issues, while also saying that the only solution is mass incarceration. When it's something like SFGate/the chronicle using the story as a talking point you have to assume that it's just "omg this crime impacted a rich person for a change".
- gotoeleven 4y ago
  Maybe that whole foods wouldnt have closed if it was just rich guys stabbing each other by the arugula.
joemazerino 4y ago
Weird anecdote but okay? My original comment on the stabbing story did wonder if it was targeted or random. Either way, passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities. The only thing worse than evil men is the indifference of good men.
- WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
  > passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities. This happens all the time... wanna see something fun, walk around your city saying "hi" to everyone and see how often you get a "hi" back.
  - joemazerino 4y ago
    I know well what it is like living in the city. I've done it for 18 years :) It is too bad people aren't cordial anymore.
  - kelp 4y ago
    Also in SF seeing someone struggling to stand on the sidewalk is not uncommon. Everyone just starts to assume that person is drunk, on drugs, whatever.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - joemazerino 4y ago
    Be honest in your statements here: it happens on both sides of the aisle.
    - matt_kantor 4y ago
      Maybe I missed some nuance, but I don't see where DonHopkins implied otherwise.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        Just knee-jerk whataboutism from somebody who's confessing that what I said applies to them too. His implication is that the "other side" justifies what he did, even though he admits what he did was wrong. The larger point is that even after he knows the actual cause, he still doesn't stop trying to spread misinformation and exploit and co-opt the death of Bob Lee for his own political agenda and pre-existing narratives. Yet he keep doing it, in spite of how Bob Lee's family feels about it and how agonizing it is for them that he and others like Elon Musk keep co-opting his death to spread misinformation and political propoganda. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/bob-lee-cash-app-killing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/bob-lee-cash-app-killi... >Mr. Lee’s brother, Oliver Lee, of Palo Alto, Calif., said in an interview on Thursday that the moves to “co-opt” the tragedy had been agonizing for his family. “Bob loved being in San Francisco, and San Francisco loved Bob,” he said, adding that young people would stop his brother on the street there and ask for advice. >He said that his brother, a father of two who had recently relocated to Miami after spending most of his career in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley, had left the city for work reasons and had returned there often, both for business and to spend time with his teenage daughters, who continued to live in the Bay Area with his former wife. >Brooke Jenkins, the San Francisco district attorney, said that “the loss of a young, vibrant leader and innovator has rocked our city and even beyond.” But she criticized what she said were “reckless and irresponsible statements” portraying the city as a hotbed of violent crime, pointing to comments by Mr. Musk, the chief executive of Twitter and Tesla, in particular.
- dang 4y ago
  > passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities We don't know what was happening in those cases. For example, we don't know those passers-by did or didn't actually see. Let's not make the same mistake all over again of projecting a pre-existing narrative onto a paucity of facts. (I don't mean to pick on you personally. We all do this, of course.) Edit: FWIW, there's a long history of belief about bystander apathy which hasn't held up under scrutiny. Related: Surveillance cameras debunk the bystander effect - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417986 - July 2019 (161 comments) Killer of Kitty Genovese Dies in Prison (Origin of “Bystander Effect”) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11430051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11430051 - April 2016 (3 comments)
  - joemazerino 4y ago
    Bob Lee did approach a car to show his stab wound. The car drove off. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/video-appears-to-show-mortally-wounded-cash-app-creator-bob-lee-looking-for-help-in-downtown-san-francisco-after-stabbing/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/video-appears-to-sho...
    - dang 4y ago
      Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, we don't actually know what the driver saw.
dang 4y ago
This was discussed thoroughly yesterday. I suggest we don't rehash the same thing. It's a guaranteed flamewar and now also just a repetition. Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35555525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35555525 - April 2023 (1161 comments) Edit: When the original thread was happening after Bob Lee was killed (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35448899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35448899), I considered pinning a comment to the top of the thread reminding commenters that none of us had any knowledge of what had happened and asking them not to have a flamewar between pre-existing narratives. I decided not to because I didn't want to overly interfere, but I regret that now.
- BenSahar 4y ago
  It's a bit funny how you refused to moderate when the dominant narrative aligned with the one Garry Tan has been trying to push.
  - dang 4y ago
    I spent my entire day moderating those threads—to the detriment of the rest of HN actually. That happens sometimes when one story takes all the moderation oxygen. See the links below. (Edit: I'm going to move them to a child comment and collapse it so as not to overload this thread with 40 links. They're there if anyone wants them.) The reason I didn't post the comment I mentioned in the GP was not lack of moderation, but the opposite: I was moderating so much that I didn't want to be accused of over-intervening. If anyone cares - in the end the decisions I made were (1) to factor out the comments that were actually about Bob Lee into their own thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457341), and (2) to let the other flamewar just burn since there wasn't anything we could to do stop it. The first decision was a good one—that thread spent many hours at the top of the front page. The second decision was probably good also—I have a pretty fine-tuned sense of what we can't control. But I do regret not posting that other reminder. I very much wanted to, and overruled myself—and now I wish I had left a better record of the mods upholding the value of not rushing to judgement. I was painfully aware of this at the time. p.s. You might be wrong about Garry too. I happened to talk with him that morning and although he didn't try to influence how we handled the story on HN (people at YC don't do that), the direction of the conversation was opposite to what you're assuming. (In any case, if you're implying that Garry's politics influence HN moderation in any way, that's definitely wrong. We haven't changed anything since he came back to YC.)
simplotek 4y ago
> Pretty terrible example to use for the lawlessness of SF. Everybody involved is wealthy, and the attack was totally personal. The fact that a person was stabbed and killed on the street and the killer felt he could get away with it is kind of a good example of "the lawlessness" you're trying to downplay. This doesn't depend on the socio-economic status of the stabbing victim, or the attacker.
- kyleee 4y ago
  We don’t have any idea if the killer thought he could get away with it. Sounds like a crazy guy and I suspect he was in a rage and may well have similarly killed Lee if they happened to be in any other location other than SF as well
majikaja 4y ago
Why can't tech people be a part of the lawlessness? Criminals all the way up.

olliej 4y ago

oh yeah, it was super clear when the hyperventilating was coming solely from one sector of the SF populace, which happens to be the same subset that keeps make questionable claims about pretty much all the SF crime and homelessness issues, while also saying that the only solution is mass incarceration. When it's something like SFGate/the chronicle using the story as a talking point you have to assume that it's just "omg this crime impacted a rich person for a change".

gotoeleven 4y ago
Maybe that whole foods wouldnt have closed if it was just rich guys stabbing each other by the arugula.

joemazerino 4y ago

Weird anecdote but okay? My original comment on the stabbing story did wonder if it was targeted or random. Either way, passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities. The only thing worse than evil men is the indifference of good men.

WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
> passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities. This happens all the time... wanna see something fun, walk around your city saying "hi" to everyone and see how often you get a "hi" back.
- joemazerino 4y ago
  I know well what it is like living in the city. I've done it for 18 years :) It is too bad people aren't cordial anymore.
- kelp 4y ago
  Also in SF seeing someone struggling to stand on the sidewalk is not uncommon. Everyone just starts to assume that person is drunk, on drugs, whatever.
DonHopkins 4y ago
[flagged]
- joemazerino 4y ago
  Be honest in your statements here: it happens on both sides of the aisle.
  - matt_kantor 4y ago
    Maybe I missed some nuance, but I don't see where DonHopkins implied otherwise.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Just knee-jerk whataboutism from somebody who's confessing that what I said applies to them too. His implication is that the "other side" justifies what he did, even though he admits what he did was wrong. The larger point is that even after he knows the actual cause, he still doesn't stop trying to spread misinformation and exploit and co-opt the death of Bob Lee for his own political agenda and pre-existing narratives. Yet he keep doing it, in spite of how Bob Lee's family feels about it and how agonizing it is for them that he and others like Elon Musk keep co-opting his death to spread misinformation and political propoganda. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/bob-lee-cash-app-killing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/bob-lee-cash-app-killi... >Mr. Lee’s brother, Oliver Lee, of Palo Alto, Calif., said in an interview on Thursday that the moves to “co-opt” the tragedy had been agonizing for his family. “Bob loved being in San Francisco, and San Francisco loved Bob,” he said, adding that young people would stop his brother on the street there and ask for advice. >He said that his brother, a father of two who had recently relocated to Miami after spending most of his career in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley, had left the city for work reasons and had returned there often, both for business and to spend time with his teenage daughters, who continued to live in the Bay Area with his former wife. >Brooke Jenkins, the San Francisco district attorney, said that “the loss of a young, vibrant leader and innovator has rocked our city and even beyond.” But she criticized what she said were “reckless and irresponsible statements” portraying the city as a hotbed of violent crime, pointing to comments by Mr. Musk, the chief executive of Twitter and Tesla, in particular.
dang 4y ago
> passerby's walking past Lee gasping his last breaths for help is indicative of the civil rot happening in our cities We don't know what was happening in those cases. For example, we don't know those passers-by did or didn't actually see. Let's not make the same mistake all over again of projecting a pre-existing narrative onto a paucity of facts. (I don't mean to pick on you personally. We all do this, of course.) Edit: FWIW, there's a long history of belief about bystander apathy which hasn't held up under scrutiny. Related: Surveillance cameras debunk the bystander effect - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20417986 - July 2019 (161 comments) Killer of Kitty Genovese Dies in Prison (Origin of “Bystander Effect”) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11430051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11430051 - April 2016 (3 comments)
- joemazerino 4y ago
  Bob Lee did approach a car to show his stab wound. The car drove off. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/video-appears-to-show-mortally-wounded-cash-app-creator-bob-lee-looking-for-help-in-downtown-san-francisco-after-stabbing/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/video-appears-to-sho...
  - dang 4y ago
    Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, we don't actually know what the driver saw.

dang 4y ago

This was discussed thoroughly yesterday. I suggest we don't rehash the same thing. It's a guaranteed flamewar and now also just a repetition. Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35555525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35555525 - April 2023 (1161 comments) Edit: When the original thread was happening after Bob Lee was killed (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35448899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35448899), I considered pinning a comment to the top of the thread reminding commenters that none of us had any knowledge of what had happened and asking them not to have a flamewar between pre-existing narratives. I decided not to because I didn't want to overly interfere, but I regret that now.

BenSahar 4y ago
It's a bit funny how you refused to moderate when the dominant narrative aligned with the one Garry Tan has been trying to push.
- dang 4y ago
  I spent my entire day moderating those threads—to the detriment of the rest of HN actually. That happens sometimes when one story takes all the moderation oxygen. See the links below. (Edit: I'm going to move them to a child comment and collapse it so as not to overload this thread with 40 links. They're there if anyone wants them.) The reason I didn't post the comment I mentioned in the GP was not lack of moderation, but the opposite: I was moderating so much that I didn't want to be accused of over-intervening. If anyone cares - in the end the decisions I made were (1) to factor out the comments that were actually about Bob Lee into their own thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457341), and (2) to let the other flamewar just burn since there wasn't anything we could to do stop it. The first decision was a good one—that thread spent many hours at the top of the front page. The second decision was probably good also—I have a pretty fine-tuned sense of what we can't control. But I do regret not posting that other reminder. I very much wanted to, and overruled myself—and now I wish I had left a better record of the mods upholding the value of not rushing to judgement. I was painfully aware of this at the time. p.s. You might be wrong about Garry too. I happened to talk with him that morning and although he didn't try to influence how we handled the story on HN (people at YC don't do that), the direction of the conversation was opposite to what you're assuming. (In any case, if you're implying that Garry's politics influence HN moderation in any way, that's definitely wrong. We haven't changed anything since he came back to YC.)

simplotek 4y ago

> Pretty terrible example to use for the lawlessness of SF. Everybody involved is wealthy, and the attack was totally personal. The fact that a person was stabbed and killed on the street and the killer felt he could get away with it is kind of a good example of "the lawlessness" you're trying to downplay. This doesn't depend on the socio-economic status of the stabbing victim, or the attacker.

kyleee 4y ago
We don’t have any idea if the killer thought he could get away with it. Sounds like a crazy guy and I suspect he was in a rage and may well have similarly killed Lee if they happened to be in any other location other than SF as well

majikaja 4y ago

Why can't tech people be a part of the lawlessness? Criminals all the way up.