3 ms·

Governments perpetrate more wars and genocides than corporations do. In the 20th century they murdered tens of millions of people.

JohnFen 4y ago
I don't think that's actually true, honestly, but it depends on how you count. For one thing, it's very hard to see where "corporations" end and "government" begins. I mean, yes, wars have killed tens of millions of people. But an awful lot of those wars were on behalf of corporations, involved corporations, or were made much worse by corporations. Just in American history, corporations have directly engaged in straight-up genocides. All wars, in the final analysis, are about economics.
- stametseater 4y ago
  I grant IBM their fair share of the blame for the Holocaust, but their involvement does not somehow wash the hands of the Nazi Party. The Nazi government of Germany was responsible for tens of millions of murders. Trying to divide the blame such that all of it falls on the premise of corporations and leaves the premise of government pure is absurd. Both of these are dangerous social structures which need to be regulated and checked to keep them within reasonable moral bounds. Unchecked, both are capable of immeasurable evil.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > Trying to divide the blame such that all of it falls on the premise of corporations and leaves the premise of government pure is absurd. I agree. And I was doing no such thing.
- pinewurst 4y ago
  Don't forget Uncle Joe, Mao, and Pol Pot who were hardly corporate. They tortured and starved millions to death without war. (And please don't say it was evil capitalism that drove them to do so.)
  - stametseater 4y ago
    Not just starvation, they also outright murdered people. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, were murdered during the 'Cultural Revolution' in Mao's PRC.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > Don't forget Uncle Joe, Mao, and Pol Pot who were hardly corporate. Good point, and I never said all horribles were because of corporations. But let me roll back a little to my original statement: corporations tend to amplify the worst aspects of human nature. I think I'm on very solid ground with that. That some governments also tend to amplify the worst of human nature does not contradict my statement in any way. > please don't say it was evil capitalism I never mentioned capitalism, evil or otherwise. I was talking about corporations.
    - hgsgm 4y ago
      Large groups of people amplify the worst parts of human nature. Mobs, corps, governments, religions.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        As George Carlin said: "I hate groups of people. I hate a group of people with a 'common purpose'. 'Cause pretty soon they have little hats. And armbands. And fight songs. And a list of people they're going to visit at 3am. So, I dislike and despise groups of people but I love individuals."
- somat 4y ago
  > it's very hard to see where "corporations" end and "government" begins. One thing I like to remember is that corporations literally are governments. A corporation is a license by the government to operate in manners restricted to governments. Usually these manners are stuff like issuing stock, voting on officers etc. Sometimes it is an public government. When a town wants to form it's own government it incorporates. most often it is a for profit endeavor that wants to run with legally enforceable rules.
- cjohnson318 4y ago
  To add to that, the Dutch VOC was a corporation with a private army and navy that set up colonies and sold stock in their profits. They helped precipitate the first stock exchange as we know it, if I recall my history correctly.

JohnFen 4y ago

I don't think that's actually true, honestly, but it depends on how you count. For one thing, it's very hard to see where "corporations" end and "government" begins. I mean, yes, wars have killed tens of millions of people. But an awful lot of those wars were on behalf of corporations, involved corporations, or were made much worse by corporations. Just in American history, corporations have directly engaged in straight-up genocides. All wars, in the final analysis, are about economics.

stametseater 4y ago
I grant IBM their fair share of the blame for the Holocaust, but their involvement does not somehow wash the hands of the Nazi Party. The Nazi government of Germany was responsible for tens of millions of murders. Trying to divide the blame such that all of it falls on the premise of corporations and leaves the premise of government pure is absurd. Both of these are dangerous social structures which need to be regulated and checked to keep them within reasonable moral bounds. Unchecked, both are capable of immeasurable evil.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Trying to divide the blame such that all of it falls on the premise of corporations and leaves the premise of government pure is absurd. I agree. And I was doing no such thing.
pinewurst 4y ago
Don't forget Uncle Joe, Mao, and Pol Pot who were hardly corporate. They tortured and starved millions to death without war. (And please don't say it was evil capitalism that drove them to do so.)
- stametseater 4y ago
  Not just starvation, they also outright murdered people. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, were murdered during the 'Cultural Revolution' in Mao's PRC.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Don't forget Uncle Joe, Mao, and Pol Pot who were hardly corporate. Good point, and I never said all horribles were because of corporations. But let me roll back a little to my original statement: corporations tend to amplify the worst aspects of human nature. I think I'm on very solid ground with that. That some governments also tend to amplify the worst of human nature does not contradict my statement in any way. > please don't say it was evil capitalism I never mentioned capitalism, evil or otherwise. I was talking about corporations.
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    Large groups of people amplify the worst parts of human nature. Mobs, corps, governments, religions.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      As George Carlin said: "I hate groups of people. I hate a group of people with a 'common purpose'. 'Cause pretty soon they have little hats. And armbands. And fight songs. And a list of people they're going to visit at 3am. So, I dislike and despise groups of people but I love individuals."
somat 4y ago
> it's very hard to see where "corporations" end and "government" begins. One thing I like to remember is that corporations literally are governments. A corporation is a license by the government to operate in manners restricted to governments. Usually these manners are stuff like issuing stock, voting on officers etc. Sometimes it is an public government. When a town wants to form it's own government it incorporates. most often it is a for profit endeavor that wants to run with legally enforceable rules.
cjohnson318 4y ago
To add to that, the Dutch VOC was a corporation with a private army and navy that set up colonies and sold stock in their profits. They helped precipitate the first stock exchange as we know it, if I recall my history correctly.