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That doesn't mean anything. If COVID gives you a heart problem and you die from that heart problem, you died from the heart problem. That COVID gave you. Why ar

That doesn't mean anything. If COVID gives you a heart problem and you die from that heart problem, you died from the heart problem. That COVID gave you. Why are we still discussing this 3 years on? We have excess deaths stats available now.

dustedcodes 4y ago
Where can we confirm this claim? Specifically in the case of the official ONS data to which you responded l. I don’t disagree with what you say, but equally I also don’t agree with it unless you can show proof?
chillbill 4y ago
Actual numbers mean everything to me, you can enjoy your pixels and ruler based estimation, I’ll take my actual numbers.
- davisoneee 4y ago
  Then you have a very naive view of reality. People, society, 'facts and numbers' are complex machines, and don't exist completely separate from anything else. There isn't some disease that just comes along and flicks an immediate 'off' switch, so dumbing it down to 'covid and nothing else' is like talking about a spherical cow in a vacuum. Everyone has different histories, different immune systems, different current healths, different short and long-term health care availability. Knowing that COVID was in their system recently, and observing that covid can have noticeable impacts on your cardiovascular system, means that COVID is likely a contributing factor (to some degree, large or small) in their death.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Excess deaths involve actual numbers. It's hard to look at the CDC's chart of all-cause death at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm (screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/wTqwIix https://imgur.com/a/wTqwIix) and pretend something didn't change with COVID.
- oezi 4y ago
  But your numbers are nonsense. People who have only listed Covid as a cause shouldn't even exist because a virus alone doesn't really kill you. It needs to make some part of your body so sick that it breaks down. With Covid we know that it caused respiratory failures (which then should show up as a cause of death), heart issues, inflammation, stroke, etc. Looking at cause of death doesn't get you any closer to assessing the mortality of this disease.
- insanejudge 4y ago
  That's a clever abuse of data but, though this may come as a surprise to you, very few people actually die by means so traumatic (crushing, incineration, explosion) that it's impossible to determine which organ or necessary biological system failed critical to their death. This same process would determine almost nobody has died of cancer, gunshot wounds, drowning, smoking, etc. as they lead to parts of one's body no longer functioning which in turn causes death, as opposed to some sort of central and essential death descending upon them. You may even recall how this exact same handful of cases were used to "demonstrate" that doctors were just making it up as they couldn't explain the cause of death. May I refer you to the 1979 film The Jerk, as the main character exclaims "there's something wrong with these cans!" when they were, in fact, being shot by a sniper. Thank you for listening to my TED talk

dustedcodes 4y ago

Where can we confirm this claim? Specifically in the case of the official ONS data to which you responded l. I don’t disagree with what you say, but equally I also don’t agree with it unless you can show proof?

chillbill 4y ago

Actual numbers mean everything to me, you can enjoy your pixels and ruler based estimation, I’ll take my actual numbers.

davisoneee 4y ago
Then you have a very naive view of reality. People, society, 'facts and numbers' are complex machines, and don't exist completely separate from anything else. There isn't some disease that just comes along and flicks an immediate 'off' switch, so dumbing it down to 'covid and nothing else' is like talking about a spherical cow in a vacuum. Everyone has different histories, different immune systems, different current healths, different short and long-term health care availability. Knowing that COVID was in their system recently, and observing that covid can have noticeable impacts on your cardiovascular system, means that COVID is likely a contributing factor (to some degree, large or small) in their death.
ceejayoz 4y ago
Excess deaths involve actual numbers. It's hard to look at the CDC's chart of all-cause death at https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm (screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/wTqwIix https://imgur.com/a/wTqwIix) and pretend something didn't change with COVID.
oezi 4y ago
But your numbers are nonsense. People who have only listed Covid as a cause shouldn't even exist because a virus alone doesn't really kill you. It needs to make some part of your body so sick that it breaks down. With Covid we know that it caused respiratory failures (which then should show up as a cause of death), heart issues, inflammation, stroke, etc. Looking at cause of death doesn't get you any closer to assessing the mortality of this disease.
insanejudge 4y ago
That's a clever abuse of data but, though this may come as a surprise to you, very few people actually die by means so traumatic (crushing, incineration, explosion) that it's impossible to determine which organ or necessary biological system failed critical to their death. This same process would determine almost nobody has died of cancer, gunshot wounds, drowning, smoking, etc. as they lead to parts of one's body no longer functioning which in turn causes death, as opposed to some sort of central and essential death descending upon them. You may even recall how this exact same handful of cases were used to "demonstrate" that doctors were just making it up as they couldn't explain the cause of death. May I refer you to the 1979 film The Jerk, as the main character exclaims "there's something wrong with these cans!" when they were, in fact, being shot by a sniper. Thank you for listening to my TED talk