5 ms·

OP was asking why de Sade is promoted so heavily. From a philosophical point of view he is a non-entity, from an erotica point of view he is dime a dozen, but i

OP was asking why de Sade is promoted so heavily. From a philosophical point of view he is a non-entity, from an erotica point of view he is dime a dozen, but it is true that as far as how low can the beastly nature of man get, he has 'contributed' to literature. OP's question is also my question. Why is this vile little man being promoted so much? After all, his entire existence and works are simply a declaration that humanity and nature are really just playthings for pleasure and settling scores with an abhored nature for a people like the Marquis. I can see how that sort of 'philosophy' would carry weight in some influential quarters.

distant_hat 4y ago
A simple answer is that people are fascinated by the grotesque whereas wholesome stuff is just blah. 50 Shades of Grey is an perfectly mediocre novel, but will sell many tens of multiples of critically acclaimed books.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Sure, but this stuff is pushed from on high not down below. Sade is promoted and held up as something (not sure precisely what) important. So the simple rebut is that the pseudo intellectual classes always poo poo what appeals to the common man. But they love this stuff, and, the common people do not like it. That’s really the only thing that is interesting about de Sade and his fan club: the curious inversion. & p.s. my personal sense is that de Sade legitimizes oppression as natural pleasure and that’s what makes him the court philosopher of the modern elite.
  - cubefox 4y ago
    When I read "the modern elite" ... like who? Elon Musk? Joe Biden? NYT journalists?
    - eternalban 4y ago
      > elon musk that's funny in a sad way. no, the post-enlightenment post-rationalist elite, the 'modern age'.
    - Centigonal 4y ago
      I mean, this does exist: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/214636339474345984 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/214636339474345984 And this: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc/c/M2PJ98_RwlQ/m/F3SvF12DStYJ https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc/c/... Safe to say Elon has some affinity for De Sade.
      - cubefox 4y ago
        That's funny. (For some reason the Twitter picture doesn't load anymore, but there are screenshots via Google.) I admit, he may have read some de Sade.
  - voldacar 4y ago
    It's a form of potlach. Same reason why the elite class promotes ugly architecture and "fashion" that nobody wears.
    - eternalban 4y ago
      I know what you're talking about however in this case there appears to be genuine affection from those quarters. A kindered soul, as it were.
narag 4y ago
OP was asking why de Sade is promoted so heavily. "Promoted" or "fascinated" are the wrong words. Sade is a classic and that's not because he was a nice guy. The same happens with many other famous authors. Fame is not a prize for being virtuous. It's what he wrote, not what he was. If you want to censor his books, you're not punishing him, the man has been dead for a long time, he doesn't care. You're punishing all potential readers.
- eternalban 4y ago
  I said nothing about censorship. I read it and strongly suggest anyone who runs into the de Sade promotion parade to actually read his output. Pick any book. [Not just the naughty bits! Read the 'philosophical' interludes so as to not miss the wisdom of this 'fascinating' man.] No. Not fascinated, heavily promoted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade_in_popular_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade_in_popular_cul...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
cafard 4y ago
Once at Borders, I was interested to see a small sign in the D area of fiction, informing customers that de Sade was shelved under S. I assumed that they didn't have a sign in the Vs for Goethe.
aaplok 4y ago
Sade is transgressive, not against our society as much as against our inner souls. Reading him creates discomfort in a way that no other author attains. It's no wonder that Beckett likens him to Dante (as quoted in TFA), because ultimately it's hard to read Sade without feeling the fragility of morality. Much of it so extreme that it is comical. What is both funny and transgressive is that he takes pretty much everything that we take morally granted and throws it back at us as just another intellectual construct. It is unsettling and I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, the fact remains that literary giants like Apollinaire, Breton, Beckett and more had a high opinion of him. Sade's influence was far from insignificant, and the dismissive tone of your comment comes across as somewhat presumptuous.
- eternalban 4y ago
  As you precisely note, there is transgression. However we disagree as to the object of the impotent rage of the marquis. Our inner souls only get involved by one of the venues offered by prurient, voyeuristic, or (precisely) satanic* impulses. Not all souls feel 'fragile' in the presence of the marquis, I assure you. You named a few renowned intellects. (As I said before, 'the elite' of the modern age.) Must I fall prostate before their authority so as not to come across as "presumptuous"? De Sade is important as a spiritual and intellectual weathervane. A sign of the age, this age, that rages on .. * the 'accuser'
  - aaplok 4y ago
    > we disagree Which is fine. I am not trying to convince you, I am responding to your (and GGP's) question on why he is promoted. > Must I fall prostate before their authority so as not to come across as "presumptuous"? Of course not. On the other hand, denying that these people's literary opinion has value beyond some vile feelings about abhorring nature does come across as presumptuous.
    - eternalban 4y ago
      Agreement was not my aim. [Of course we can agree to disagree.] I am pointing out that a different reading of the corpus is possible. On the second point you have misunderstood as well. They are entitled to their opinion, and are representative of a selected subset of thinkers in their era. The main issue is how they position themselves in relationship to "nature" (as you put it) which is rejected. Presumptuous only enters the picture if one insists, as you do, that such a choice can only be validated by a cultural and intellectual establishment (which is also rather characteristic of that set).

distant_hat 4y ago

A simple answer is that people are fascinated by the grotesque whereas wholesome stuff is just blah. 50 Shades of Grey is an perfectly mediocre novel, but will sell many tens of multiples of critically acclaimed books.

eternalban 4y ago
Sure, but this stuff is pushed from on high not down below. Sade is promoted and held up as something (not sure precisely what) important. So the simple rebut is that the pseudo intellectual classes always poo poo what appeals to the common man. But they love this stuff, and, the common people do not like it. That’s really the only thing that is interesting about de Sade and his fan club: the curious inversion. & p.s. my personal sense is that de Sade legitimizes oppression as natural pleasure and that’s what makes him the court philosopher of the modern elite.
- cubefox 4y ago
  When I read "the modern elite" ... like who? Elon Musk? Joe Biden? NYT journalists?
  - eternalban 4y ago
    > elon musk that's funny in a sad way. no, the post-enlightenment post-rationalist elite, the 'modern age'.
  - Centigonal 4y ago
    I mean, this does exist: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/214636339474345984 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/214636339474345984 And this: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc/c/M2PJ98_RwlQ/m/F3SvF12DStYJ https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc/c/... Safe to say Elon has some affinity for De Sade.
    - cubefox 4y ago
      That's funny. (For some reason the Twitter picture doesn't load anymore, but there are screenshots via Google.) I admit, he may have read some de Sade.
- voldacar 4y ago
  It's a form of potlach. Same reason why the elite class promotes ugly architecture and "fashion" that nobody wears.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    I know what you're talking about however in this case there appears to be genuine affection from those quarters. A kindered soul, as it were.

narag 4y ago

OP was asking why de Sade is promoted so heavily. "Promoted" or "fascinated" are the wrong words. Sade is a classic and that's not because he was a nice guy. The same happens with many other famous authors. Fame is not a prize for being virtuous. It's what he wrote, not what he was. If you want to censor his books, you're not punishing him, the man has been dead for a long time, he doesn't care. You're punishing all potential readers.

eternalban 4y ago
I said nothing about censorship. I read it and strongly suggest anyone who runs into the de Sade promotion parade to actually read his output. Pick any book. [Not just the naughty bits! Read the 'philosophical' interludes so as to not miss the wisdom of this 'fascinating' man.] No. Not fascinated, heavily promoted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade_in_popular_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade_in_popular_cul...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

cafard 4y ago

Once at Borders, I was interested to see a small sign in the D area of fiction, informing customers that de Sade was shelved under S. I assumed that they didn't have a sign in the Vs for Goethe.

aaplok 4y ago

Sade is transgressive, not against our society as much as against our inner souls. Reading him creates discomfort in a way that no other author attains. It's no wonder that Beckett likens him to Dante (as quoted in TFA), because ultimately it's hard to read Sade without feeling the fragility of morality. Much of it so extreme that it is comical. What is both funny and transgressive is that he takes pretty much everything that we take morally granted and throws it back at us as just another intellectual construct. It is unsettling and I don't blame anyone for not liking him. However, the fact remains that literary giants like Apollinaire, Breton, Beckett and more had a high opinion of him. Sade's influence was far from insignificant, and the dismissive tone of your comment comes across as somewhat presumptuous.

eternalban 4y ago
As you precisely note, there is transgression. However we disagree as to the object of the impotent rage of the marquis. Our inner souls only get involved by one of the venues offered by prurient, voyeuristic, or (precisely) satanic* impulses. Not all souls feel 'fragile' in the presence of the marquis, I assure you. You named a few renowned intellects. (As I said before, 'the elite' of the modern age.) Must I fall prostate before their authority so as not to come across as "presumptuous"? De Sade is important as a spiritual and intellectual weathervane. A sign of the age, this age, that rages on .. * the 'accuser'
- aaplok 4y ago
  > we disagree Which is fine. I am not trying to convince you, I am responding to your (and GGP's) question on why he is promoted. > Must I fall prostate before their authority so as not to come across as "presumptuous"? Of course not. On the other hand, denying that these people's literary opinion has value beyond some vile feelings about abhorring nature does come across as presumptuous.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Agreement was not my aim. [Of course we can agree to disagree.] I am pointing out that a different reading of the corpus is possible. On the second point you have misunderstood as well. They are entitled to their opinion, and are representative of a selected subset of thinkers in their era. The main issue is how they position themselves in relationship to "nature" (as you put it) which is rejected. Presumptuous only enters the picture if one insists, as you do, that such a choice can only be validated by a cultural and intellectual establishment (which is also rather characteristic of that set).