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The mainstream liberal interpretation is that gender is a social construct separate from sexual identity/preference, and you can’t constrain the expression of e

The mainstream liberal interpretation is that gender is a social construct separate from sexual identity/preference, and you can’t constrain the expression of either to the historical Western norms, because that’s an attack on Constitutionally-protected individual rights. There’s a more extreme leftist interpretation that says both are fixed identities practically from birth, but it ends up with the same conclusion: let people be and do what they want, even if it doesn’t fit into heteronormative expectations about gender or sex. My entire point is that’s the morally and legally correct framework, because we shouldn’t be using scientific determinism to make decisions about how individuals with free will and rights can express themselves. The article is correct to have the disclaimer, in this light.

rayiner 3y ago
What you characterize as the “more extreme leftist interpretation” is actually the more conservative view. You can get most people on board with exceptions to social norms for biologically-rooted differences. Acceptance of same-sex marriage increased dramatically after the push in the 1990s and 2000s to educate the public that people are “born that way.” “Scientific determinism” is the lynchpin of the broad acceptance of same-sex marriage today. By contrast, what you call the “mainstream liberal interpretation” is the radical position. It rejects society’s right and prerogative to impose norms and regulate voluntary self-expression. While a minority of conservatives will resist any changes to biblical categories, what generates widespread reaction across multiple groups is the feeling that liberals are using sexual minorities as a vehicle for loosening restrictions on voluntary sexual behavior and gender expression. You’re correct the two positions lead to the “same” outcome—but only initially. Eventually, a conflict arises between liberals, who want sanction for a broader range of voluntary self expression, and gay or trans people, who often simply want to fit in as best as they are able. You’re seeing that conflict of interest play out right now. Bostock, which granted equal civil rights to trans people, was immediately accepted by the majority of conservatives. That caused liberals to pivot to causes like drag shows involving voluntary non-conformance, which generated immediate backlash and opposition. Liberals can’t tell the difference—to them, it’s self expression, whether it’s voluntary or biologically rooted. But to everyone else, it makes a huge difference whether someone is thumbing their nose at society’s rules, or trying to exist in society the way God made them.
- swalling 3y ago
  It's almost LOL wrong to state that conservatives have gladly accepted that trans people are entitled to full and equal treatment under the law. Conservative groups have sued to get religious exemptions to Bostock (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/religious-groups-u-s-seek-reversals-in-lgbt-bias-case-ruling https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/religious-g...) which is particularly pernicious given the number of religious organizations that operate large employers like hospitals. Just one Tucker Carlson clip (https://www.foxnews.com/video/6324164359112 https://www.foxnews.com/video/6324164359112) shows how American conservatives are continually frothing at the mouth about trans rights. There is a related wave of anti-trans laws being pushed through by conservative elected officials at the state level right now. They're specifically attacking trans children and school policy, as the soft underbelly that gets conservative parents riled up for a culture war and which is legally more vulnerable.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    You don’t have to read tea leaves: https://www.kff.org/other/press-release/poll-large-majorities-including-republicans-oppose-discrimination-against-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-people-by-employers-and-health-care-providers/ https://www.kff.org/other/press-release/poll-large-majoritie... (“In each case, large majorities across partisan lines, including more than 7 in 10 Republicans, think such discrimination against LGBTQ people should be illegal.”). These folks are upset about the “existence of transgender people,” but also want to make it illegal to discriminate against them? You can understand the “culture war” by applying your own description of the “liberal interpretation.” As you aptly summarized, liberals don’t care about biological determination because they believe in people being free to express themselves without being limited to traditional norms and categories. It was when liberals started to advance that view—for example by promoting drag shows, which are about cis men dressing up as women as a form of self expression—that they triggered the culture war.
    - swalling 3y ago
      Yeah unfortunately for conservatives, the annals of history are generally a story of culture evolving more rapidly than traditionalists are comfortable with. We happen to live in a country where the core Constitutional answer to that problem can best be summarized as: tough shit, get used to it. You can move to Saudi Arabia if you want to live in a traditionalist autocracy that will protect you from the horrors of drag brunch.

rayiner 3y ago

What you characterize as the “more extreme leftist interpretation” is actually the more conservative view. You can get most people on board with exceptions to social norms for biologically-rooted differences. Acceptance of same-sex marriage increased dramatically after the push in the 1990s and 2000s to educate the public that people are “born that way.” “Scientific determinism” is the lynchpin of the broad acceptance of same-sex marriage today. By contrast, what you call the “mainstream liberal interpretation” is the radical position. It rejects society’s right and prerogative to impose norms and regulate voluntary self-expression. While a minority of conservatives will resist any changes to biblical categories, what generates widespread reaction across multiple groups is the feeling that liberals are using sexual minorities as a vehicle for loosening restrictions on voluntary sexual behavior and gender expression. You’re correct the two positions lead to the “same” outcome—but only initially. Eventually, a conflict arises between liberals, who want sanction for a broader range of voluntary self expression, and gay or trans people, who often simply want to fit in as best as they are able. You’re seeing that conflict of interest play out right now. Bostock, which granted equal civil rights to trans people, was immediately accepted by the majority of conservatives. That caused liberals to pivot to causes like drag shows involving voluntary non-conformance, which generated immediate backlash and opposition. Liberals can’t tell the difference—to them, it’s self expression, whether it’s voluntary or biologically rooted. But to everyone else, it makes a huge difference whether someone is thumbing their nose at society’s rules, or trying to exist in society the way God made them.

swalling 3y ago
It's almost LOL wrong to state that conservatives have gladly accepted that trans people are entitled to full and equal treatment under the law. Conservative groups have sued to get religious exemptions to Bostock (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/religious-groups-u-s-seek-reversals-in-lgbt-bias-case-ruling https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/religious-g...) which is particularly pernicious given the number of religious organizations that operate large employers like hospitals. Just one Tucker Carlson clip (https://www.foxnews.com/video/6324164359112 https://www.foxnews.com/video/6324164359112) shows how American conservatives are continually frothing at the mouth about trans rights. There is a related wave of anti-trans laws being pushed through by conservative elected officials at the state level right now. They're specifically attacking trans children and school policy, as the soft underbelly that gets conservative parents riled up for a culture war and which is legally more vulnerable.
- rayiner 3y ago
  You don’t have to read tea leaves: https://www.kff.org/other/press-release/poll-large-majorities-including-republicans-oppose-discrimination-against-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-people-by-employers-and-health-care-providers/ https://www.kff.org/other/press-release/poll-large-majoritie... (“In each case, large majorities across partisan lines, including more than 7 in 10 Republicans, think such discrimination against LGBTQ people should be illegal.”). These folks are upset about the “existence of transgender people,” but also want to make it illegal to discriminate against them? You can understand the “culture war” by applying your own description of the “liberal interpretation.” As you aptly summarized, liberals don’t care about biological determination because they believe in people being free to express themselves without being limited to traditional norms and categories. It was when liberals started to advance that view—for example by promoting drag shows, which are about cis men dressing up as women as a form of self expression—that they triggered the culture war.
  - swalling 3y ago
    Yeah unfortunately for conservatives, the annals of history are generally a story of culture evolving more rapidly than traditionalists are comfortable with. We happen to live in a country where the core Constitutional answer to that problem can best be summarized as: tough shit, get used to it. You can move to Saudi Arabia if you want to live in a traditionalist autocracy that will protect you from the horrors of drag brunch.