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Prediction: clean room AI will forever lag behind AI that hoovers up whatever data it can get it's hands on.
by oh_sigh 4y ago
Prediction: clean room AI will forever lag behind AI that hoovers up whatever data it can get it's hands on.
- CharlesW 4y agoIt won't matter if using the output has sufficient risk. Go ahead and train that model on Disney content and sell the results, then see what happens.
- TobyTheDog123 4y agoNo one will be able to prove the source of the data - was it Disney content, or was it someone copying the animation style of Disney content?
- ChatGTP 4y agoEventually you will need to show sources and I’m sure we’ll have ways to extract sources from the models. ma these things are not magic after all.
- amanaplanacanal 4y agoI’m not sure why sources matter at all. In copyright you compare the end result, not how you got there.
- blibble 4y agothis isn't true at all the process the work was generated through is of primary importance for copyright the existence of the concept of "derivative work" should make this obvious see the reverse engineering of the IBM BIOS for another example
- CuriouslyC 4y agoThere are specific criterion for fair use: https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/ https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/. None of them are process specific. Maybe bone up on the law rather than getting yourself in any deeper.
- blibble 4y ago> Maybe bone up on the law rather than getting yourself in any deeper. we're not talking about fair use here buddy
- CuriouslyC 4y agoAnd that's probably why you're talking to yourself.
- blibble 4y agoMaybe try reading the thread rather than getting yourself in any deeper.
- CuriouslyC 4y agoYou're the one trying to ignore fair use as it has been broadly applied to creative works for something like 150 years, and make this about a very narrow slice of software copyright law even though people in the thread are talking about images and music. You're being willfully obtuse to try and make an argument because you are emotional about AI creative output.
- blibble 4y agoanother strawman
- kmeisthax 4y agoYou actually can, but only for things the model memorized: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2301.13188.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2301.13188.pdf
- bryanrasmussen 4y agoI've noticed programmers often think the law will be worked around by 'tricks' your honor, this LLM produces content that looks like various Disney intellectual products, it was obviously trained on that data. your honor, no we trained it on a lot artwork that was copying the Disney style! Judge: do you have this corpus of data you trained it on for the court to inspect. uh, no. summary judgement for plaintiff.
- newswasboring 4y agoWhy will this lead to summary judgement to the plaintiff, neither side has presented concrete proofs, just assertions. Serious question.
- maxbond 4y agoThe standard in US civil court is preponderance of evidence, not reasonable doubt. You'd have to go further then making an assertion (by bringing in an expert witness or something) but you don't necessarily have to prove something definitively. You just have to make the more compelling argument - you have to present evidence that it's more likely that your position is correct. Since the hypothetical AI company wasn't able to produce anything in it's defense, it lost. IANAL
- dragonwriter 4y ago> you don't have to prove anything, strictly speaking. Strictly speaking, you do have to prove things (if you have the burden of proof on the specific issue), and the standard of proof is usually “preponderance of the evidence” (though there are a few other standards that apply to particular issues/circumstances in the civil justice system.) “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a different standard of proof used for conviction in the criminal justice system, but it is strictly not correct to call proof under other standards something other than proof.
- maxbond 4y agoFor sure, I was responding to the idea of "concrete proof" and why it didn't need to be "concrete proof," but I'm sure you're right. Thanks for keeping me honest. I've edited my comment to reflect your correction.
- fauxpause_ 4y agoSo if I create a movie about cyber pangolin, a gory half human half pangolin cyborg fighting for Justice in a post bio-punk world where people are swapping their organs out on a daily basis due to immuno suppressant immunity; and I used a model that saw Aladdin, you think Disney could successfully sue Cyber Pangolin for violating the copyright of Aladdin? Cuz I don’t.
- newswasboring 4y agoHonestly at this point it's not about who is right, it's about who has the bigger legal team. So yes, I think Disney can sue and possibly win. Copyright system has not made sense in a while now.
- fauxpause_ 4y agoIt’s really not. That’s very dishonest and lazy hand waving.
- CuriouslyC 4y agoThat's only true if the judge doesn't throw the case out nearly immediately, which they will do if they view that the plaintiff's case is bullshit.
- indymike 4y agoIt depends on how much of a knock-off the model's output is, no different than a human artist. Taking Disney's Aladdin and putting a cyborg eye on him probably will be a legal issue that the user of the art and seller of the AI output both would be liable for. AI is a tool, and it can be used for good and evil.
- fauxpause_ 4y agoI agree. But that is irrelevant to what a model was trained on.
- oh_sigh 4y agoSure, if the company doing it is in the same jurisdiction banning it. But what if it's hosted in, say, Russia?
- joshspankit 4y agoYes but also no. Training on shite results in a pretty poor AI compared to one that’s trained on quality data. Do I think that means that quality AI will keep up with “hoover AI”? No. Hoover AI still gets you to profitability and that’s mostly what matters in a capitalist arms race.
- pixl97 4y agoReal life contains a lot of shit data that you have to learn to filter by experience. An AI containing only the best will fall flat on its face when subjected to the dirty mess reality is.
- joshspankit 4y agoI’m not sure about that, but I’m looking forward to finding out
- pixl97 4y agoLets say this another way "A Child left in an empty room is never going to get ahead of one that has experiences with everything in the world" Anyone that thinks a clean room is going to make a valid AI, in my mind, is insane.