4 ms·

> And most of these families not only don’t speak English, they often don’t even speak Spanish. They often speak a variety of indigenous languages common across

> And most of these families not only don’t speak English, they often don’t even speak Spanish. They often speak a variety of indigenous languages common across rural Latin America. That actually sounds super fascinating and like a unique opportunity to learn about pre-Coloumbian history. Do you know any of the language names? Did these children come from extremely remote villages that never adopted Spanish? > If that suddenly happened at Spring Hill I guarantee you Trump would win Virginia in a landslide. Democrats like my parents—who are upset that the mixed income neighborhood where we live has some poor kids—would be chanting “build that wall.” It's honestly really sad that anyone would see these children as a threat and not as an opportunity to learn more about the world and our history.

throwaway6734 4y ago
It depends on their upbringing. If they come from backgrounds with broken families and normalized violence they will generally be a threat to children that don't come from that background
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  That claim is extremely suspect, are there any studies?
  - throwaway6734 4y ago
    Do you have any experience working with children that come from those backgrounds? There's a reason poor urban schools are so terrible
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      It's definitely not the neglect and underfunding of course Do you have experience working with them?
      - throwaway6734 4y ago
        Yes I taught middle school in Baltimore for a few years. The level of normalized violence is significantly higher than the middle class suburban school I went to. Yes it's caused by parental neglect and poverty. Many poor urban schools are the highest funded but even then need significantly more resources than an affluent suburban school
        rayiner 4y ago
        Note that: (1) anywhere in Baltimore is far richer than the Bangladeshi village where my dad grew up; and (2) his village is nonetheless vastly safer and more peaceful. What plagues Baltimore isn’t just poverty. (We lived there for a couple of years.) It’s a breakdown of the social hierarchy, and in particular the replacement of male authority with gangs.
        kevviiinn 4y ago
        You may want to recall that correlation doesn't equal causation. We live in an incredibly complex system where things may appear a bit disconnected.
tayo42 4y ago
Lol I just went down a rabbit hole about language. Idk which he is talking about but there are a few million people who speak Mayan languages in Guatemala still. The same might be true about the south part of Mexico, like around Oaxaca, I'd fact check though before believing me.
rayiner 4y ago
Parents want what’s best for their own kids. A large population of impoverished non-English speaking refugees takes massive amounts of attention and resources from the school to cater to. That takes away attention and resources from the kids who are already there. Also, studies confirm that kids are highly influenced by their peers. Rich Americans are highly skeptical of what values and behaviors their kids will pick up from poor people. In my country this is so well accepted that we don’t even bother to hide it. But I think rich Americans basically act consistent with that premise even if it’s taboo to say it out loud. It’s an important part of why people move to exclusive suburbs.
- wootland 4y ago
  > A large population of impoverished non-English speaking refugees takes massive amounts of attention and resources from the school to cater to. They also add value. As you can see by the very interesting reply about indigenous languages, there is significant cultural and historical value being dismissed by viewing non-English speaking poor people as a pure liability.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    You can learn about that in a book without having to divert budget resources to hire expensive teachers with the skills to meet those kids’ needs.
    - wootland 4y ago
      The value I'm talking about isn't educational value (although there is that too), it's cultural and social value. There's vast sums of money wasted on things far more malignant than supporting multiple languages for students.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Whose money? What obligation do these communities have to support those educational expenses? And of course the change in culture and they’re kids’ socialization isn’t something you can fix with money.
DicIfTEx 4y ago
There are many extant indigeneous groups across Central and South America who still retain the use of their traditional languages, often alongside Spanish. Around Mexico/Guatemala these are often Mayan languages such as Tzotzil in the Mexican state of Chiapas, but other language famailies include the Choco languages (such as the languages of the Embera and Wounaan people, most of whom live in the Darién region of Panama). In South America you have groups like the Mapuche with their own languages, and in the Amazon alone there are over 3,000 recognised indigenous territories. In many of the Caribbean regions of those countries (particularly Central America), Spanish might not be spoken at all, with most people instead speaking an English creole alongside an indigenous language such as Garifuna (e.g., see https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Caribbean_Nicaragua https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Caribbean_Nicaragua ). Then you get into the Caribbean where some islands speak Dutch or French (or creoles thereof), and of course Brazilians speak Portuguese rather than Spanish (though there is some mutual intelligibility there). Also, it's worth stressing that in many of these areas, knowledge of a language does not mean the ability to read or write it.
xyzzyz 4y ago
> That actually sounds super fascinating and like a unique opportunity to learn about pre-Coloumbian history. Not a lot. Most native people who did not adopt colonist languages have very little idea about their own history stretching any further than 100 years or so. This is because they mostly had no writing. Without writing, it is insanely hard to preserve anything more than living memory.

throwaway6734 4y ago

It depends on their upbringing. If they come from backgrounds with broken families and normalized violence they will generally be a threat to children that don't come from that background

kevviiinn 4y ago
That claim is extremely suspect, are there any studies?
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  Do you have any experience working with children that come from those backgrounds? There's a reason poor urban schools are so terrible
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    It's definitely not the neglect and underfunding of course Do you have experience working with them?
    - throwaway6734 4y ago
      Yes I taught middle school in Baltimore for a few years. The level of normalized violence is significantly higher than the middle class suburban school I went to. Yes it's caused by parental neglect and poverty. Many poor urban schools are the highest funded but even then need significantly more resources than an affluent suburban school
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Note that: (1) anywhere in Baltimore is far richer than the Bangladeshi village where my dad grew up; and (2) his village is nonetheless vastly safer and more peaceful. What plagues Baltimore isn’t just poverty. (We lived there for a couple of years.) It’s a breakdown of the social hierarchy, and in particular the replacement of male authority with gangs.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        You may want to recall that correlation doesn't equal causation. We live in an incredibly complex system where things may appear a bit disconnected.

tayo42 4y ago

Lol I just went down a rabbit hole about language. Idk which he is talking about but there are a few million people who speak Mayan languages in Guatemala still. The same might be true about the south part of Mexico, like around Oaxaca, I'd fact check though before believing me.

rayiner 4y ago

Parents want what’s best for their own kids. A large population of impoverished non-English speaking refugees takes massive amounts of attention and resources from the school to cater to. That takes away attention and resources from the kids who are already there. Also, studies confirm that kids are highly influenced by their peers. Rich Americans are highly skeptical of what values and behaviors their kids will pick up from poor people. In my country this is so well accepted that we don’t even bother to hide it. But I think rich Americans basically act consistent with that premise even if it’s taboo to say it out loud. It’s an important part of why people move to exclusive suburbs.

wootland 4y ago
> A large population of impoverished non-English speaking refugees takes massive amounts of attention and resources from the school to cater to. They also add value. As you can see by the very interesting reply about indigenous languages, there is significant cultural and historical value being dismissed by viewing non-English speaking poor people as a pure liability.
- rayiner 4y ago
  You can learn about that in a book without having to divert budget resources to hire expensive teachers with the skills to meet those kids’ needs.
  - wootland 4y ago
    The value I'm talking about isn't educational value (although there is that too), it's cultural and social value. There's vast sums of money wasted on things far more malignant than supporting multiple languages for students.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Whose money? What obligation do these communities have to support those educational expenses? And of course the change in culture and they’re kids’ socialization isn’t something you can fix with money.

DicIfTEx 4y ago

There are many extant indigeneous groups across Central and South America who still retain the use of their traditional languages, often alongside Spanish. Around Mexico/Guatemala these are often Mayan languages such as Tzotzil in the Mexican state of Chiapas, but other language famailies include the Choco languages (such as the languages of the Embera and Wounaan people, most of whom live in the Darién region of Panama). In South America you have groups like the Mapuche with their own languages, and in the Amazon alone there are over 3,000 recognised indigenous territories. In many of the Caribbean regions of those countries (particularly Central America), Spanish might not be spoken at all, with most people instead speaking an English creole alongside an indigenous language such as Garifuna (e.g., see https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Caribbean_Nicaragua https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Caribbean_Nicaragua ). Then you get into the Caribbean where some islands speak Dutch or French (or creoles thereof), and of course Brazilians speak Portuguese rather than Spanish (though there is some mutual intelligibility there). Also, it's worth stressing that in many of these areas, knowledge of a language does not mean the ability to read or write it.

xyzzyz 4y ago

> That actually sounds super fascinating and like a unique opportunity to learn about pre-Coloumbian history. Not a lot. Most native people who did not adopt colonist languages have very little idea about their own history stretching any further than 100 years or so. This is because they mostly had no writing. Without writing, it is insanely hard to preserve anything more than living memory.