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— You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not adv

— You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not advocate for abstinence. Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them, especially if you're a dev on HN, I guess you have the spending power to buy alternatives. — Meat and diary have the best protein profile, with no bottlenecks. A young man needs between 1 and 2 grams of protein per kg per day, which is very hard to get with a vegan diet, and implies other problems, such as a surcharge of carbs in your diet. Your link shows tofu as a suitable alternative – it's not, as the phytoestrogen content is an endocrine perturbation for men. — Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Anyway, if you live in a rich country, your way of life probably causes a lot of pain to humans, too. You know, the people who have to work 12h/day 6 days a week to make the cheap consumption goods you own. The poor laborers that pick your vegetables for a minimum wage, or even less, and will get an early cancer because of the pesticides' exposure. The business consultants who have to face extreme pressure and insane working time to produce a few % more for the retirees that own their company's stock each year. This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. On my own, I will continue to eat french cheese from the farm near my parent's house, where goats come to the farmer to be milked and are in pasture 8 months of the year. This caloric intake allows me to eat fewer vegetables from slave industrial farms from southern Spain.

dmbche 3y ago
- An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  - It's not a life and death solution, humans have become what they are because they could eat animals. I don't share your opinion about "exploiting animals for profits" - why is that bad? Will you stop using other humans for profit, too? - Nutrition is one of the least scientific domains, with theories coming in and out every decade. You can leave solely on a plant-based diet, but there are many drawbacks. It's not like if it was just like changing your shirt's color. Plant proteins profiles are inferior to animal protein profiles. Period. - Phytoestrogen have a measurable impact on hormone levels. Here is a metastudy by the french food safety body, explaining in length this : https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.pdf https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.... - You decide that animals are equal to humans. I decide that it's not the case, which is the common perspective held in western societies since they exist.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? - again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. - I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Why care about a dog's suffering and not a pig's? They have the same nociceptors, just as we do. I'm just being consistent with not causing unnecessary suffering. I don't know where "equal" was said? I even said "relatable" as in there is no relation between your mentionned slave labor and animal exploitation. You drew a parallel to feel better about exploiting animals.
    - Kretinsky 3y ago
      > I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? Unless you live in the forest, with no identity card and no social security, eating mushrooms and berries, you have transactional relationships with other humans, where you create a profit out of their work. More generally, most of the consumption goods you consume are made in sweatshops in poorer countries, where industries arbitrage health & working regulation to extract more values from workers. If you live in the US, well you fund wars across the globe to fund your country's prosperity, tied to the hegemonic status of the dollar. > again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. Can we please stop with the authority argument? Ten years ago every nutritionist were telling you that fat was bad. Now carbs are bad. Every specialist repeated like zombies that COVID-19 was going to be apocalyptic if we didn't lock the population and injected everyone with a poorly researched vaccine. It appeared that most of the people affected by those policies weren't at risk, and now we have a massive youth depression/poverty/delayed education problem, notwithstanding the after effects of the "vaccine-that-works-for-3-months-maybe-but-does-not-stop-transmission". Please refute that meat > plants regarding protein profiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein > I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Domesticated animals are a product of the man's hands. I don't agree with USA-style factory farming, which is a case of hubris, bad for humans' health, the ecosystem, and creates unnecessary suffering. However, breeding animals for their produce, and killing them for their meat, is totally ok if done in good conditions. I don't have a dog because I consider that dogs should primarily be used with the intent their breed was created for. Just like goats were bred to produce milk, Border Collies are made to lead herds. That's also when they're the happiest. :-)
dmbche 3y ago
Oh and for your neighbours goat : ask him how long they live, how they are put down, what happens to their children and how often they are inseminated and forced to give birth. Just a few things to keep in mind when compared to the life of that same goat in a sanctuary or in nature, when thinking of all the "suffering" you're preventing by exploiting them.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dmbche 3y ago
    Funny enough I've been working in farms for years! I've been part of the industry myself. I'd love to see a paper on the sponge with hormones, I've never heard of that. Please send me any link to this claim. Keep in mind the other questions as well, if you please. How long do they live, compared to a life in nature? Don't guess, actually ask him. Giving birth is indeed a part of life, but forcible insemination is not. Do you think most milk doesn't come from forcible inseminations? I doubt you've spent much time on real farms, instead of hobby farms.
    - Kretinsky 3y ago
      > I'd love to see a paper on the sponge with hormones, I've never heard of that. Please send me any link to this claim. You can find many experiments regarding fertility using sponges. Regarding the milk production, sorry I don't know the precise english verbiage. Here is a paper in French regarding the “extended lactation” practice. It's from a professional body, with real-life testimonies: https://vienne.chambre-agriculture.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/Nouvelle-Aquitaine/104_Inst-Vienne/Documents/mes_productions/production_animale/caprin/2013_Lactations_Longues.pdf https://vienne.chambre-agriculture.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/... > Keep in mind the other questions as well, if you please. How long do they live, compared to a life in nature? Don't guess, actually ask him. Probably much longer, given that they don't have to face predators, and the humans provide food in winter and medications for them. > Giving birth is indeed a part of life, but forcible insemination is not. Do you think most milk doesn't come from forcible inseminations? It does come from insemination – extended lactation allows you to reduce insemination. However, goat milk is not an invention of the modern time – you can also let males do their thing with the goats. > I doubt you've spent much time on real farms, instead of hobby farms. Thanks to a long experience in cheese making, which sells at a premium, the French can make a living out of small herds. I grew up chasing the semi-wild Charolais beef living the best of their lives in the Morvan's pastures. I happen to have a few friends who make a living out of cattle farming, so it's definitely not a "hobby" for them. Sorry if it's not the case for you, maybe it's a time to rethink your business model?
uxcolumbo 3y ago
> Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Animals like cats are carnivores, they need meat to survive and they act on instinct. And since you are comparing yourself with a cat then please eat animal flesh raw - don't cook it or season it to make it palatable. I doubt you would be able to eat raw flesh every day to sustain yourself. We can choose between inflicting or not inflicting suffering on animals. So since we don't need meat to thrive - I mean high performance athletes do without [0] - then why inflict suffering on animals if we don't need to? The only reason is because it tastes good. So does your insatiable hunger for animal flesh justify the suffering and death of an animals? > Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them The point is if we want to feed the world using your 'happy farm' method - it wouldn't be possible, because we don't have the land or resources required to maintain our current meat consumption using your method. So the goal is to abolish factory farms. The type of farms you describe would probably continue to exist, but the price would increase even more. > This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. Please don't conflate all those different topics and assume it's about virtue signalling. > You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. Where did I talk about domination? Abolishing factory farms and encouraging people to reduce or avoid meat & dairy completely is part of solving the problem of the climate crisis. This is a scientific fact, but of course you can choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore the dangers of going beyond 2.0C global heating. [0] https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/six-reasons-athletes-are-running-toward-vegan-diet https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/six-reasons-athletes-are-runn...
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  - Many animals kill out of pleasure/instinct, not to eat. Ask any shepherd, wolves will often come, kill a sheep, and leave it. Humans cook meat to increase their caloric intake, which reduces the amount of meat needed to eat. I don't see any problem with this. - Your link regarding "high performance athletes" isn't really relevant. F1 Racers are not athletes - they have to be as slim as possible to fit in the car body. Also, nothing is told about performance, just random facts about cardiovascular health, something that doesn't affect athletes, as they're already doing a lot of exercise. Last, there is a lot of difference between red meat full of fat and the lean, white meat that most athletes consume. Same with antioxidants, eating meat doesn't prevent you to eat berries on the side. Ah, and plant-based diets are usually full of carbs, which are metabolized into fat, so their last point is another example of vegan pseudoscience. - The "happy farm" method could exist by reducing our meat consumption. You can also greatly improve industrial farms if you accept price increases, which is I think a reasonable solution. - It's virtue signaling. I met so many vegans earning top 5% income lecturing me about global warming and taking planes few times a year for their holidays, I now know the drill quite well. You know what? The best predictor for your CO2 production is your income, which is associated to your consumption level. You want to reduce global warming? Withdraw 80% of your salary in cash and burn it. Stop using a fridge, as well.

dmbche 3y ago

- An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -

Kretinsky 3y ago
- It's not a life and death solution, humans have become what they are because they could eat animals. I don't share your opinion about "exploiting animals for profits" - why is that bad? Will you stop using other humans for profit, too? - Nutrition is one of the least scientific domains, with theories coming in and out every decade. You can leave solely on a plant-based diet, but there are many drawbacks. It's not like if it was just like changing your shirt's color. Plant proteins profiles are inferior to animal protein profiles. Period. - Phytoestrogen have a measurable impact on hormone levels. Here is a metastudy by the french food safety body, explaining in length this : https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.pdf https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.... - You decide that animals are equal to humans. I decide that it's not the case, which is the common perspective held in western societies since they exist.
- dmbche 3y ago
  I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? - again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. - I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Why care about a dog's suffering and not a pig's? They have the same nociceptors, just as we do. I'm just being consistent with not causing unnecessary suffering. I don't know where "equal" was said? I even said "relatable" as in there is no relation between your mentionned slave labor and animal exploitation. You drew a parallel to feel better about exploiting animals.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    > I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? Unless you live in the forest, with no identity card and no social security, eating mushrooms and berries, you have transactional relationships with other humans, where you create a profit out of their work. More generally, most of the consumption goods you consume are made in sweatshops in poorer countries, where industries arbitrage health & working regulation to extract more values from workers. If you live in the US, well you fund wars across the globe to fund your country's prosperity, tied to the hegemonic status of the dollar. > again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. Can we please stop with the authority argument? Ten years ago every nutritionist were telling you that fat was bad. Now carbs are bad. Every specialist repeated like zombies that COVID-19 was going to be apocalyptic if we didn't lock the population and injected everyone with a poorly researched vaccine. It appeared that most of the people affected by those policies weren't at risk, and now we have a massive youth depression/poverty/delayed education problem, notwithstanding the after effects of the "vaccine-that-works-for-3-months-maybe-but-does-not-stop-transmission". Please refute that meat > plants regarding protein profiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein > I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Domesticated animals are a product of the man's hands. I don't agree with USA-style factory farming, which is a case of hubris, bad for humans' health, the ecosystem, and creates unnecessary suffering. However, breeding animals for their produce, and killing them for their meat, is totally ok if done in good conditions. I don't have a dog because I consider that dogs should primarily be used with the intent their breed was created for. Just like goats were bred to produce milk, Border Collies are made to lead herds. That's also when they're the happiest. :-)

dmbche 3y ago

Oh and for your neighbours goat : ask him how long they live, how they are put down, what happens to their children and how often they are inseminated and forced to give birth. Just a few things to keep in mind when compared to the life of that same goat in a sanctuary or in nature, when thinking of all the "suffering" you're preventing by exploiting them.

Kretinsky 3y ago
[flagged]
- dmbche 3y ago
  Funny enough I've been working in farms for years! I've been part of the industry myself. I'd love to see a paper on the sponge with hormones, I've never heard of that. Please send me any link to this claim. Keep in mind the other questions as well, if you please. How long do they live, compared to a life in nature? Don't guess, actually ask him. Giving birth is indeed a part of life, but forcible insemination is not. Do you think most milk doesn't come from forcible inseminations? I doubt you've spent much time on real farms, instead of hobby farms.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    > I'd love to see a paper on the sponge with hormones, I've never heard of that. Please send me any link to this claim. You can find many experiments regarding fertility using sponges. Regarding the milk production, sorry I don't know the precise english verbiage. Here is a paper in French regarding the “extended lactation” practice. It's from a professional body, with real-life testimonies: https://vienne.chambre-agriculture.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/Nouvelle-Aquitaine/104_Inst-Vienne/Documents/mes_productions/production_animale/caprin/2013_Lactations_Longues.pdf https://vienne.chambre-agriculture.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/... > Keep in mind the other questions as well, if you please. How long do they live, compared to a life in nature? Don't guess, actually ask him. Probably much longer, given that they don't have to face predators, and the humans provide food in winter and medications for them. > Giving birth is indeed a part of life, but forcible insemination is not. Do you think most milk doesn't come from forcible inseminations? It does come from insemination – extended lactation allows you to reduce insemination. However, goat milk is not an invention of the modern time – you can also let males do their thing with the goats. > I doubt you've spent much time on real farms, instead of hobby farms. Thanks to a long experience in cheese making, which sells at a premium, the French can make a living out of small herds. I grew up chasing the semi-wild Charolais beef living the best of their lives in the Morvan's pastures. I happen to have a few friends who make a living out of cattle farming, so it's definitely not a "hobby" for them. Sorry if it's not the case for you, maybe it's a time to rethink your business model?

uxcolumbo 3y ago

> Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Animals like cats are carnivores, they need meat to survive and they act on instinct. And since you are comparing yourself with a cat then please eat animal flesh raw - don't cook it or season it to make it palatable. I doubt you would be able to eat raw flesh every day to sustain yourself. We can choose between inflicting or not inflicting suffering on animals. So since we don't need meat to thrive - I mean high performance athletes do without [0] - then why inflict suffering on animals if we don't need to? The only reason is because it tastes good. So does your insatiable hunger for animal flesh justify the suffering and death of an animals? > Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them The point is if we want to feed the world using your 'happy farm' method - it wouldn't be possible, because we don't have the land or resources required to maintain our current meat consumption using your method. So the goal is to abolish factory farms. The type of farms you describe would probably continue to exist, but the price would increase even more. > This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. Please don't conflate all those different topics and assume it's about virtue signalling. > You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. Where did I talk about domination? Abolishing factory farms and encouraging people to reduce or avoid meat & dairy completely is part of solving the problem of the climate crisis. This is a scientific fact, but of course you can choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore the dangers of going beyond 2.0C global heating. [0] https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/six-reasons-athletes-are-running-toward-vegan-diet https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/six-reasons-athletes-are-runn...

Kretinsky 3y ago
- Many animals kill out of pleasure/instinct, not to eat. Ask any shepherd, wolves will often come, kill a sheep, and leave it. Humans cook meat to increase their caloric intake, which reduces the amount of meat needed to eat. I don't see any problem with this. - Your link regarding "high performance athletes" isn't really relevant. F1 Racers are not athletes - they have to be as slim as possible to fit in the car body. Also, nothing is told about performance, just random facts about cardiovascular health, something that doesn't affect athletes, as they're already doing a lot of exercise. Last, there is a lot of difference between red meat full of fat and the lean, white meat that most athletes consume. Same with antioxidants, eating meat doesn't prevent you to eat berries on the side. Ah, and plant-based diets are usually full of carbs, which are metabolized into fat, so their last point is another example of vegan pseudoscience. - The "happy farm" method could exist by reducing our meat consumption. You can also greatly improve industrial farms if you accept price increases, which is I think a reasonable solution. - It's virtue signaling. I met so many vegans earning top 5% income lecturing me about global warming and taking planes few times a year for their holidays, I now know the drill quite well. You know what? The best predictor for your CO2 production is your income, which is associated to your consumption level. You want to reduce global warming? Withdraw 80% of your salary in cash and burn it. Stop using a fridge, as well.