4 ms·

This is shocking and saddening, and should also be a lesson to this community: previous threads on this tragedy immediately jumped to blaming the homeless, when

This is shocking and saddening, and should also be a lesson to this community: previous threads on this tragedy immediately jumped to blaming the homeless, when the overwhelming majority of violent crimes are committed by individuals known to the victim. Edit: Added "violent," to preempt diversions about non-violent crimes.

Alupis 4y ago
[flagged]
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  >One counter-example out of thousands does not prove SF is a safe or clean place. Strawman. I don't think that was an invitation to launch into the same rant from the last thread either.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Absolutely none of this justifies blaming every violent crime on homeless people, as HN is quick to do. SF is not an outlier, nationally, in terms of the proportion of violent crimes perpetrated by people known to their victims.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > in terms of the proportion of violent crimes perpetrated by people known to their victims The factoid you're trying to cite is specifically about murder. Most homicides are indeed committed by someone the victim knew. SF's homicide rate isn't out of proportion with other big cities. It's crime rate is, however, and the overwhelming majority of crime being committed there right now happens to be from homeless transients. The types that break into your car to sell whatever they can get a hold of for more drugs. Crime is severely under-reported in SF. The police are powerless to do anything to a transient - they will not pay a fine or appear in court anyway after all. So the system negatively feeds into itself - false crime statistics, which gives the politicians cover to claim crime is down. Just go there yourself... you can see it so very readily. The cleanliness is another related issue. SF needs to get itself back in order. It's driving people away.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      This is what I'm talking about: this is a thread about a violent crime, and you're talking about quality of life. This has nothing to do with the tragedy at hand, and conflating the two only serves to demonize society's most needy. If you find that SF's quality of life doesn't suit you, then don't live there. I don't.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        > then don't live there. I don't We know. There has been a mass exodus from the area for various reasons - among which is the crime and cleanliness issue. How many HNer's have moved away and are never coming back? SF is facing a looming income issue since so many high earners have left the area. This will contribute to it's decline even further. Safety and cleanliness are not what I would dismiss as quality of life issues. Those are basic needs.
        kevviiinn 4y ago
        >How many HNer's have moved away and are never coming back? I've seen ~3 or 4 people mention it
  - a_bonobo 4y ago
    You're right, here's some data to support your point: >In 2020, the reported violent crime rate in S.F. was 21% below the average of 20 most populous cities other than San Francisco for which there was full 2020 data available. Meanwhile, the city’s property crime rate was 41% above average. >San Francisco’s violent crime rate has declined significantly since the early 1990s – a trend that is consistent with the rest of the state. Anti-gun violence initiatives in S.F. may have contributed to this trend. https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/fixing-san-francisco-problems/crime https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/fixing-san-francis... >“We found little relationship between encampments and nearly all forms of reported property crime,” Lanfear said, “but a very strong link between reported property crime and complaints about homelessness.” https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/poll-crime-and-homelessness-are-linked-in-the-minds-of-san-franciscans/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/poll-crime-and-homel...
    - gitfan86 4y ago
      If you have no problem living near homeless encampments, that is totally fine, you are welcome to live wherever you want. Personally, I don't like living in a city where I walk past people pooping on the sidewalk. Which I've witnessed in SF. If you have statistics that people pooping on the sidewalk on the middle of the day happens 20% less often in SF than other cities, then great, I guess I'm just lucky to have not seen that in NYC,BOS,ATL.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      It's important to note just how under-reported SF's crime is. The police don't do anything (for many reasons) so citizens don't bother reporting. So, if reported crime is already 41% higher than average - we can only imagine what the true figure is.
roflyear 4y ago
Most people saying that probably didn't even live in California. Awful people
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Wait. I can't have an opinion about places other than my immediate surrounding?
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I'm not saying you can't, you are of course free to do whatever you want. I'm saying it doesn't make much sense (to me).
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      You may be focusing on the negative aspect of it ( and possibly only one perspective, but I will wait for your response to confirm if that is the case ). As a potential tourist, opinion of others of a given locale will make a difference in deciding whether I will want to visit. In other words, it absolutely makes sense to not only hold, but even seek out opinion of other places. But, in line with what you said, we are not all wired the same way. Still, just because it does not make sense to you does not mean others don't see value in it.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        We're talking about policy changes, not tourism. Largely this is in the context of how to fix the problem.
hbarka 4y ago
This doesn't mean San Francisco is exonerated from being a crime-laden city. It's an inconvenient truth but car break-ins, looting of retail shops, open air drug markets, unhygienic streets, and rampant homelessness are worse than ever.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  Ah yes, being homeless. One of the greatest crimes
  - david38 4y ago
    Right. Breaking into cars is a requirement of being homeless and done only by the homeless
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      Definitely. I've absolutely never heard of young college kids breaking into cars
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    No, it’s not a crime. But it deserves a spot on the list of “shitty things about SF.”
whatshisface 4y ago
Look, this might be an unnecessary comment but... This suspect is innocent until proven guilty and we will all still be here when the trial finishes. There is no reason to rush out to come up with a viewpoint that might be shown false with later revelations. If we've learned something from the people who jumped straight to total confidence that it was caused by homelessness, then let's apply it.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The suspect is indeed innocent until proven guilty. I haven't advanced any claim that this particular suspect is the perpetrator; only that violent crimes are overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. I hope that we can extend the same fundamental legal skepticism to society's most needy.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    > violent crimes are overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. Homicide. Homicide is overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. Violent Crime includes armed robbery, aggravated assault, forcible rape and murder. Not all of these crimes share that statistic.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      “Not all” is doing a lot of lifting: of the four you’ve listed, three are disproportionally committed by people known to their victim. As a category, “violent crimes” are overwhelmingly intimate.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        > As a category, “violent crimes” are overwhelmingly intimate This statement appears to be false, according to the linked DOJ report below (despite the claims made by the comment). The report indicates violence committed by strangers is 2-3 times that of violence committed by known individuals.
    - 4y ago
kodah 4y ago
I'd say that the lesson learned needs to be broader than that. Any time Texas, California, Portland etc are mentioned the culture warriors of the left and right come out. The effect is a lot of lost trust for each other in this community when that happens. I do appreciate the people who posted on the other thread saying they were wrong about assuming a homeless person did it, but this won't be the last time culture war issues land discretely on the front page.
- khazhoux 4y ago
  Certainly there are some culture warriors, who use these situations only as springboards to their pre-existing and unmovable opinions about those on the Other Side. But it’s not all culture war. I like to think that in HN it’s all legitimate viewpoints.
  - prawn 4y ago
    And relevant to HN is that, culture wars aside, it involves challenging and interesting problems (homelessness, drugs, petty crime). There are multiple approaches to situations like these and the best solutions could well be a compromise.
- uncletaco 4y ago
  "Both sides"
  - kodah 4y ago
    I get quite tired of catty replies like this. If you think "your side" doesn't contribute to an ecosystem of cause and effect I don't know what to tell you. If you're so fragile that you need to hear it spelled out, "The right is still on average worse than you but you're still bad" then I also don't know what to tell you. Maybe, just, don't participate in discourse or something. Your opinion isn't needed, wanted, or appreciated.
    - uncletaco 4y ago
bitlax 4y ago
[flagged]
cjohnson318 4y ago
I think about 64% of murder victims know their murderer, but that depends a lot on your background and social network.

Alupis 4y ago

[flagged]

operatingthetan 4y ago
>One counter-example out of thousands does not prove SF is a safe or clean place. Strawman. I don't think that was an invitation to launch into the same rant from the last thread either.
woodruffw 4y ago
Absolutely none of this justifies blaming every violent crime on homeless people, as HN is quick to do. SF is not an outlier, nationally, in terms of the proportion of violent crimes perpetrated by people known to their victims.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > in terms of the proportion of violent crimes perpetrated by people known to their victims The factoid you're trying to cite is specifically about murder. Most homicides are indeed committed by someone the victim knew. SF's homicide rate isn't out of proportion with other big cities. It's crime rate is, however, and the overwhelming majority of crime being committed there right now happens to be from homeless transients. The types that break into your car to sell whatever they can get a hold of for more drugs. Crime is severely under-reported in SF. The police are powerless to do anything to a transient - they will not pay a fine or appear in court anyway after all. So the system negatively feeds into itself - false crime statistics, which gives the politicians cover to claim crime is down. Just go there yourself... you can see it so very readily. The cleanliness is another related issue. SF needs to get itself back in order. It's driving people away.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    This is what I'm talking about: this is a thread about a violent crime, and you're talking about quality of life. This has nothing to do with the tragedy at hand, and conflating the two only serves to demonize society's most needy. If you find that SF's quality of life doesn't suit you, then don't live there. I don't.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > then don't live there. I don't We know. There has been a mass exodus from the area for various reasons - among which is the crime and cleanliness issue. How many HNer's have moved away and are never coming back? SF is facing a looming income issue since so many high earners have left the area. This will contribute to it's decline even further. Safety and cleanliness are not what I would dismiss as quality of life issues. Those are basic needs.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        >How many HNer's have moved away and are never coming back? I've seen ~3 or 4 people mention it
- a_bonobo 4y ago
  You're right, here's some data to support your point: >In 2020, the reported violent crime rate in S.F. was 21% below the average of 20 most populous cities other than San Francisco for which there was full 2020 data available. Meanwhile, the city’s property crime rate was 41% above average. >San Francisco’s violent crime rate has declined significantly since the early 1990s – a trend that is consistent with the rest of the state. Anti-gun violence initiatives in S.F. may have contributed to this trend. https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/fixing-san-francisco-problems/crime https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/fixing-san-francis... >“We found little relationship between encampments and nearly all forms of reported property crime,” Lanfear said, “but a very strong link between reported property crime and complaints about homelessness.” https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/poll-crime-and-homelessness-are-linked-in-the-minds-of-san-franciscans/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/poll-crime-and-homel...
  - gitfan86 4y ago
    If you have no problem living near homeless encampments, that is totally fine, you are welcome to live wherever you want. Personally, I don't like living in a city where I walk past people pooping on the sidewalk. Which I've witnessed in SF. If you have statistics that people pooping on the sidewalk on the middle of the day happens 20% less often in SF than other cities, then great, I guess I'm just lucky to have not seen that in NYC,BOS,ATL.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    It's important to note just how under-reported SF's crime is. The police don't do anything (for many reasons) so citizens don't bother reporting. So, if reported crime is already 41% higher than average - we can only imagine what the true figure is.

roflyear 4y ago

Most people saying that probably didn't even live in California. Awful people

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Wait. I can't have an opinion about places other than my immediate surrounding?
- roflyear 4y ago
  I'm not saying you can't, you are of course free to do whatever you want. I'm saying it doesn't make much sense (to me).
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    You may be focusing on the negative aspect of it ( and possibly only one perspective, but I will wait for your response to confirm if that is the case ). As a potential tourist, opinion of others of a given locale will make a difference in deciding whether I will want to visit. In other words, it absolutely makes sense to not only hold, but even seek out opinion of other places. But, in line with what you said, we are not all wired the same way. Still, just because it does not make sense to you does not mean others don't see value in it.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      We're talking about policy changes, not tourism. Largely this is in the context of how to fix the problem.

hbarka 4y ago

This doesn't mean San Francisco is exonerated from being a crime-laden city. It's an inconvenient truth but car break-ins, looting of retail shops, open air drug markets, unhygienic streets, and rampant homelessness are worse than ever.

kevviiinn 4y ago
Ah yes, being homeless. One of the greatest crimes
- david38 4y ago
  Right. Breaking into cars is a requirement of being homeless and done only by the homeless
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    Definitely. I've absolutely never heard of young college kids breaking into cars
- khazhoux 4y ago
  No, it’s not a crime. But it deserves a spot on the list of “shitty things about SF.”

whatshisface 4y ago

Look, this might be an unnecessary comment but... This suspect is innocent until proven guilty and we will all still be here when the trial finishes. There is no reason to rush out to come up with a viewpoint that might be shown false with later revelations. If we've learned something from the people who jumped straight to total confidence that it was caused by homelessness, then let's apply it.

woodruffw 4y ago
The suspect is indeed innocent until proven guilty. I haven't advanced any claim that this particular suspect is the perpetrator; only that violent crimes are overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. I hope that we can extend the same fundamental legal skepticism to society's most needy.
- Alupis 4y ago
  > violent crimes are overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. Homicide. Homicide is overwhelmingly committed by people known to their victims. Violent Crime includes armed robbery, aggravated assault, forcible rape and murder. Not all of these crimes share that statistic.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    “Not all” is doing a lot of lifting: of the four you’ve listed, three are disproportionally committed by people known to their victim. As a category, “violent crimes” are overwhelmingly intimate.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > As a category, “violent crimes” are overwhelmingly intimate This statement appears to be false, according to the linked DOJ report below (despite the claims made by the comment). The report indicates violence committed by strangers is 2-3 times that of violence committed by known individuals.
  - 4y ago

kodah 4y ago

I'd say that the lesson learned needs to be broader than that. Any time Texas, California, Portland etc are mentioned the culture warriors of the left and right come out. The effect is a lot of lost trust for each other in this community when that happens. I do appreciate the people who posted on the other thread saying they were wrong about assuming a homeless person did it, but this won't be the last time culture war issues land discretely on the front page.

khazhoux 4y ago
Certainly there are some culture warriors, who use these situations only as springboards to their pre-existing and unmovable opinions about those on the Other Side. But it’s not all culture war. I like to think that in HN it’s all legitimate viewpoints.
- prawn 4y ago
  And relevant to HN is that, culture wars aside, it involves challenging and interesting problems (homelessness, drugs, petty crime). There are multiple approaches to situations like these and the best solutions could well be a compromise.
uncletaco 4y ago
"Both sides"
- kodah 4y ago
  I get quite tired of catty replies like this. If you think "your side" doesn't contribute to an ecosystem of cause and effect I don't know what to tell you. If you're so fragile that you need to hear it spelled out, "The right is still on average worse than you but you're still bad" then I also don't know what to tell you. Maybe, just, don't participate in discourse or something. Your opinion isn't needed, wanted, or appreciated.
  - uncletaco 4y ago

bitlax 4y ago

[flagged]

cjohnson318 4y ago

I think about 64% of murder victims know their murderer, but that depends a lot on your background and social network.