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Factory farms exist in other countries, not just the US. They exist in China, Europe, etc. The reason why factory farms exist is because it's the cheapest and

Factory farms exist in other countries, not just the US. They exist in China, Europe, etc. The reason why factory farms exist is because it's the cheapest and efficient way to provide animal meat to the masses. You can't do that with grass fed free roaming animal farms. It would be too expensive and require even more land. Why is meat and dairy a better protein source? We don't require tons of protein to thrive [0]. What's important is to have a wholesome diet with a variety of nutrients, not just this obsession with protein. In fact dairy is not ideal for human consumption, see https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/health-concerns-about-dairy https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/he.... PCRM is a group of medical experts providing evidence based health information. Animals know when they are about to be killed - even with 'responsible slaughtering', it's still an act of immense cruelty. Do you want to be stunned and have your throat slit or a bolt shot through your head? Do animals freely give up their life so we can have some temporary pleasure moment in our mouth or do you think they would fight for their life? Why inflict cruelty on sentient beings and destroy our biosphere when we don't need to? We humans have given up other cruel practices so why not give up killing and torturing Billions of animals each year and progress towards a more humane society? If you have no other food sources or have medical issues and need meat to survive then ignore the above. [0] https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/

Kretinsky 4y ago
— You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not advocate for abstinence. Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them, especially if you're a dev on HN, I guess you have the spending power to buy alternatives. — Meat and diary have the best protein profile, with no bottlenecks. A young man needs between 1 and 2 grams of protein per kg per day, which is very hard to get with a vegan diet, and implies other problems, such as a surcharge of carbs in your diet. Your link shows tofu as a suitable alternative – it's not, as the phytoestrogen content is an endocrine perturbation for men. — Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Anyway, if you live in a rich country, your way of life probably causes a lot of pain to humans, too. You know, the people who have to work 12h/day 6 days a week to make the cheap consumption goods you own. The poor laborers that pick your vegetables for a minimum wage, or even less, and will get an early cancer because of the pesticides' exposure. The business consultants who have to face extreme pressure and insane working time to produce a few % more for the retirees that own their company's stock each year. This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. On my own, I will continue to eat french cheese from the farm near my parent's house, where goats come to the farmer to be milked and are in pasture 8 months of the year. This caloric intake allows me to eat fewer vegetables from slave industrial farms from southern Spain.
- dmbche 4y ago
  - An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -
  - Kretinsky 4y ago
    - It's not a life and death solution, humans have become what they are because they could eat animals. I don't share your opinion about "exploiting animals for profits" - why is that bad? Will you stop using other humans for profit, too? - Nutrition is one of the least scientific domains, with theories coming in and out every decade. You can leave solely on a plant-based diet, but there are many drawbacks. It's not like if it was just like changing your shirt's color. Plant proteins profiles are inferior to animal protein profiles. Period. - Phytoestrogen have a measurable impact on hormone levels. Here is a metastudy by the french food safety body, explaining in length this : https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.pdf https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.... - You decide that animals are equal to humans. I decide that it's not the case, which is the common perspective held in western societies since they exist.
    - dmbche 4y ago
      I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? - again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. - I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Why care about a dog's suffering and not a pig's? They have the same nociceptors, just as we do. I'm just being consistent with not causing unnecessary suffering. I don't know where "equal" was said? I even said "relatable" as in there is no relation between your mentionned slave labor and animal exploitation. You drew a parallel to feel better about exploiting animals.
dmbche 4y ago
Just had a flash! You remember talking about the spanish slaves working for your vegetables and fruits you were so concerned about? I wonder if your friends that are producing free range cheese couldn't farm crops on their land instead? Wouldn't that be nice? No need to exploit either the cows or the slaves, everyone wins! But I'm sure their field isn't good for crops, is it? There couldn't possibly be a way to make it work right? And they would make less money! Who would've thought that exploiting animals is done for profit?

Kretinsky 4y ago

— You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not advocate for abstinence. Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them, especially if you're a dev on HN, I guess you have the spending power to buy alternatives. — Meat and diary have the best protein profile, with no bottlenecks. A young man needs between 1 and 2 grams of protein per kg per day, which is very hard to get with a vegan diet, and implies other problems, such as a surcharge of carbs in your diet. Your link shows tofu as a suitable alternative – it's not, as the phytoestrogen content is an endocrine perturbation for men. — Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Anyway, if you live in a rich country, your way of life probably causes a lot of pain to humans, too. You know, the people who have to work 12h/day 6 days a week to make the cheap consumption goods you own. The poor laborers that pick your vegetables for a minimum wage, or even less, and will get an early cancer because of the pesticides' exposure. The business consultants who have to face extreme pressure and insane working time to produce a few % more for the retirees that own their company's stock each year. This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. On my own, I will continue to eat french cheese from the farm near my parent's house, where goats come to the farmer to be milked and are in pasture 8 months of the year. This caloric intake allows me to eat fewer vegetables from slave industrial farms from southern Spain.

dmbche 4y ago
- An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -
- Kretinsky 4y ago
  - It's not a life and death solution, humans have become what they are because they could eat animals. I don't share your opinion about "exploiting animals for profits" - why is that bad? Will you stop using other humans for profit, too? - Nutrition is one of the least scientific domains, with theories coming in and out every decade. You can leave solely on a plant-based diet, but there are many drawbacks. It's not like if it was just like changing your shirt's color. Plant proteins profiles are inferior to animal protein profiles. Period. - Phytoestrogen have a measurable impact on hormone levels. Here is a metastudy by the french food safety body, explaining in length this : https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.pdf https://www.anses.fr/fr/system/files/NUT-Ra-Phytoestrogenes.... - You decide that animals are equal to humans. I decide that it's not the case, which is the common perspective held in western societies since they exist.
  - dmbche 4y ago
    I don't think i exploit other humans for profit. What makes you think I do? - again, you have no formation and are spewing nonsense. And adding "period" at the end. And you know it too, you're saying yourself that nutrition science is unscientific. - I'm unsure what you mean. Do animals have no moral value? When should we care about animals? Why care about a dog's suffering and not a pig's? They have the same nociceptors, just as we do. I'm just being consistent with not causing unnecessary suffering. I don't know where "equal" was said? I even said "relatable" as in there is no relation between your mentionned slave labor and animal exploitation. You drew a parallel to feel better about exploiting animals.

dmbche 4y ago

Just had a flash! You remember talking about the spanish slaves working for your vegetables and fruits you were so concerned about? I wonder if your friends that are producing free range cheese couldn't farm crops on their land instead? Wouldn't that be nice? No need to exploit either the cows or the slaves, everyone wins! But I'm sure their field isn't good for crops, is it? There couldn't possibly be a way to make it work right? And they would make less money! Who would've thought that exploiting animals is done for profit?