5 ms·

This is bad - can lead to a death spiral in terms of retirement funds.

by outside1234 4y ago

HPsquared 4y ago
People can always retire later I guess. Pensions are kind of a luxury if someone is fit and healthy.
- Izkata 4y ago
  France is trying this. It's not going well.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Ehh, the French will find any reason to have a riot. The Japanese will not riot for any reason, ever.
    - linguae 4y ago
      Ummmm, Japanese people have rioted before. While riots have been very rare in recent decades, the decades after WWII had riots, including the rather legendary riots over the construction of Narita Airport (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanrizuka_Struggle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanrizuka_Struggle). There was even a riot in 1973 that broke out by train commuters who were enraged that they couldn’t get to work due to striking train workers back when the JR system was nationalized: https://youtu.be/7QUfszx22w4 https://youtu.be/7QUfszx22w4
      - HPsquared 4y ago
        Ironic that the 1973 riot was against striking workers. I think that's the exception that proves the rule!
    - an_ko 4y ago
      I checked. They will, for some reasons, sometimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disorder_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disor...
      - HPsquared 4y ago
        Ok, perhaps very occasionally. That list has nothing from the last 50 years and includes spontaneous folk music concerts, though. I'm sure France has had more civil unrest in the last 5 years, than Japan has had in the last 50.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- pixl97 4y ago
  The likelihood of someone being fit and healthy drops significantly as age increases. An apt analogy is attempting to use a part in a machine after its replacement interval. Yea, it may keep going, or it may fail spectacularly and cost your more than using a new replacement part. Simply put, most people past a particular age are going to have reduced economic output due to frail bodies and weak minds.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    I am proposing that parts are replaced based on condition, not an arbitrary fixed service interval. Condition monitoring increases efficiency. Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it: retirement can often cause its own problems, just as replacing parts unnecessarily in a machine can cause problems.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      So you're telling me now for my best benefit I should fake the condition of my parts to be worse then they actually are?
      - HPsquared 4y ago
        People would need to be honest, that's a weakness I guess. Maybe it could work in Japan. You may need a strong shame culture to prevent abuse.
- pempem 4y ago
  I have to assume you're not 60 and still working and thinking about how to pay your bills. Pensions are used by corporations to keep their spend and employee population predictable. It's lovely when it works out for the employee but its not the primary goal. I would debate whether its a luxury when you've locked yourself out of market growth in the hopes of a soft landing when older. Also "If someone is fit and healthy" is far more than a series of personal decisions and age catches up with you fast. Once you also combine with that the changes in tech, and in the workplace in general, you'll see fewer and fewer options for that luxury pension
nerpderp82 4y ago
The population imbalance is temporary. We don't always need to run a Ponzi scheme of infinite growth. We desperately need population collapse.
- pempem 4y ago
  While I agree with you about not needing a Ponzi scheme of infinite growth (great phrase), population collapse is drastic. We have - a serious mismanagement of resources via a nat'l resources deficit: https://www.activesustainability.com/environment/natural-resources-deficit/ https://www.activesustainability.com/environment/natural-res... - a horrible distribution of food globally (as an example, the US wastes 40% of its food: https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs) - more than enough land to go around.
- warent 4y ago
  "Ponzi scheme" is such an excessive indictment and mischaracterization of exchange of goods and services. Human population has no clear correlation to quality of life. In the words of Ludwig von Mises, "If the tailor goes to war against the baker, he must henceforth bake his own bread." Society can maintain a balance in this way without population restriction. Greater population grants us the luxury of more specializations and ideally more free time and more comforts.
  - nerpderp82 4y ago
    You have said nothing couched in quotes.
    - warent 4y ago
      I offered some reasons why you might be wrong for the sake of discussion. Even without my reasons, "you are wrong" suffices because the onus is on you to provide proof of an assertion, otherwise it's false by default. Providing proof of a negative is nonsense.
      - 4y ago

This is bad - can lead to a death spiral in terms of retirement funds.

HPsquared 4y ago

People can always retire later I guess. Pensions are kind of a luxury if someone is fit and healthy.

Izkata 4y ago
France is trying this. It's not going well.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Ehh, the French will find any reason to have a riot. The Japanese will not riot for any reason, ever.
  - linguae 4y ago
    Ummmm, Japanese people have rioted before. While riots have been very rare in recent decades, the decades after WWII had riots, including the rather legendary riots over the construction of Narita Airport (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanrizuka_Struggle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanrizuka_Struggle). There was even a riot in 1973 that broke out by train commuters who were enraged that they couldn’t get to work due to striking train workers back when the JR system was nationalized: https://youtu.be/7QUfszx22w4 https://youtu.be/7QUfszx22w4
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      Ironic that the 1973 riot was against striking workers. I think that's the exception that proves the rule!
  - an_ko 4y ago
    I checked. They will, for some reasons, sometimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disorder_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disor...
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      Ok, perhaps very occasionally. That list has nothing from the last 50 years and includes spontaneous folk music concerts, though. I'm sure France has had more civil unrest in the last 5 years, than Japan has had in the last 50.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pixl97 4y ago
The likelihood of someone being fit and healthy drops significantly as age increases. An apt analogy is attempting to use a part in a machine after its replacement interval. Yea, it may keep going, or it may fail spectacularly and cost your more than using a new replacement part. Simply put, most people past a particular age are going to have reduced economic output due to frail bodies and weak minds.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  I am proposing that parts are replaced based on condition, not an arbitrary fixed service interval. Condition monitoring increases efficiency. Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it: retirement can often cause its own problems, just as replacing parts unnecessarily in a machine can cause problems.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    So you're telling me now for my best benefit I should fake the condition of my parts to be worse then they actually are?
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      People would need to be honest, that's a weakness I guess. Maybe it could work in Japan. You may need a strong shame culture to prevent abuse.
pempem 4y ago
I have to assume you're not 60 and still working and thinking about how to pay your bills. Pensions are used by corporations to keep their spend and employee population predictable. It's lovely when it works out for the employee but its not the primary goal. I would debate whether its a luxury when you've locked yourself out of market growth in the hopes of a soft landing when older. Also "If someone is fit and healthy" is far more than a series of personal decisions and age catches up with you fast. Once you also combine with that the changes in tech, and in the workplace in general, you'll see fewer and fewer options for that luxury pension

nerpderp82 4y ago

The population imbalance is temporary. We don't always need to run a Ponzi scheme of infinite growth. We desperately need population collapse.

pempem 4y ago
While I agree with you about not needing a Ponzi scheme of infinite growth (great phrase), population collapse is drastic. We have - a serious mismanagement of resources via a nat'l resources deficit: https://www.activesustainability.com/environment/natural-resources-deficit/ https://www.activesustainability.com/environment/natural-res... - a horrible distribution of food globally (as an example, the US wastes 40% of its food: https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs https://www.usda.gov/foodwaste/faqs) - more than enough land to go around.
warent 4y ago
"Ponzi scheme" is such an excessive indictment and mischaracterization of exchange of goods and services. Human population has no clear correlation to quality of life. In the words of Ludwig von Mises, "If the tailor goes to war against the baker, he must henceforth bake his own bread." Society can maintain a balance in this way without population restriction. Greater population grants us the luxury of more specializations and ideally more free time and more comforts.
- nerpderp82 4y ago
  You have said nothing couched in quotes.
  - warent 4y ago
    I offered some reasons why you might be wrong for the sake of discussion. Even without my reasons, "you are wrong" suffices because the onus is on you to provide proof of an assertion, otherwise it's false by default. Providing proof of a negative is nonsense.
    - 4y ago