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- Responsible slaughtering requires stunning the animal before killing it. - In many countries/biotopes, livestock farming is the only type of farming you can

- Responsible slaughtering requires stunning the animal before killing it. - In many countries/biotopes, livestock farming is the only type of farming you can do, because the earth is too poor to have something else than pastures. As such, stopping it may be a net-negative in terms of food production. - Stop thinking that the only way to breed animals is through factory farms. Not everyone is american. - Meat, and animal products (milk, eggs...) are a much better protein source than any plant-based alternative. Be it natural, or the chemical/GMO trash that is served by new foodtech startups. Again, just like you find giant pickups only in the US, many countries outside the US eat meat and breed animals responsibly. You should ask for ethical alternatives, rather than a complete abstinence.

uxcolumbo 3y ago
Factory farms exist in other countries, not just the US. They exist in China, Europe, etc. The reason why factory farms exist is because it's the cheapest and efficient way to provide animal meat to the masses. You can't do that with grass fed free roaming animal farms. It would be too expensive and require even more land. Why is meat and dairy a better protein source? We don't require tons of protein to thrive [0]. What's important is to have a wholesome diet with a variety of nutrients, not just this obsession with protein. In fact dairy is not ideal for human consumption, see https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/health-concerns-about-dairy https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/he.... PCRM is a group of medical experts providing evidence based health information. Animals know when they are about to be killed - even with 'responsible slaughtering', it's still an act of immense cruelty. Do you want to be stunned and have your throat slit or a bolt shot through your head? Do animals freely give up their life so we can have some temporary pleasure moment in our mouth or do you think they would fight for their life? Why inflict cruelty on sentient beings and destroy our biosphere when we don't need to? We humans have given up other cruel practices so why not give up killing and torturing Billions of animals each year and progress towards a more humane society? If you have no other food sources or have medical issues and need meat to survive then ignore the above. [0] https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  — You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not advocate for abstinence. Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them, especially if you're a dev on HN, I guess you have the spending power to buy alternatives. — Meat and diary have the best protein profile, with no bottlenecks. A young man needs between 1 and 2 grams of protein per kg per day, which is very hard to get with a vegan diet, and implies other problems, such as a surcharge of carbs in your diet. Your link shows tofu as a suitable alternative – it's not, as the phytoestrogen content is an endocrine perturbation for men. — Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Anyway, if you live in a rich country, your way of life probably causes a lot of pain to humans, too. You know, the people who have to work 12h/day 6 days a week to make the cheap consumption goods you own. The poor laborers that pick your vegetables for a minimum wage, or even less, and will get an early cancer because of the pesticides' exposure. The business consultants who have to face extreme pressure and insane working time to produce a few % more for the retirees that own their company's stock each year. This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. On my own, I will continue to eat french cheese from the farm near my parent's house, where goats come to the farmer to be milked and are in pasture 8 months of the year. This caloric intake allows me to eat fewer vegetables from slave industrial farms from southern Spain.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    - An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -
barbazoo 3y ago
Sorry but it's silly to assume animal abuse is only a symptom in the US. Happens all over the world, even in Europe. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/14/farm-animal-abuses-widespread-across-europe-warn-auditors https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/14/farm-ani... > Meat, and animal products (milk, eggs...) are a much better protein source than any plant-based alternative. I'm curious, in what way, what's your metric? This article suggests they're mostly equivalent so why chose the one involving animals at all? https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#animal-protein-downsides https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein...
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  - Do you imply that industrial farming is the only way to farm? If not, why wouldn't we develop alternatives instead of advocating for abstinence. It's as if you were asking people to be naked in the street because some clothes were made in sweatshops in Asia. - It's elementary. For a protein to be usable by the body, it needs to be complete : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein and in the right amounts. Vegetables don't contain complete proteins generally, so you have to eat a diversified, complex array of food to equate animal products. Animal products are complete, and their profile is very close to what the body needs. Another problem is that “high protein” vegetables usually come with plenty of carbs, or fat in the case of nuts. If you have a high-protein diet because you're a young, active male, you'll end up increasing your caloric intake too much. For instance, in the case of Quinoa, you get 39g of carbs for 8g of lower-quality proteins.
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    From what I read, your view is outdated but you do you. Vegetarianism is thousands of years old, there are hundreds of millions of vegetarians and vegans in the world. It's completely possible for almost all people to live vegetarian or vegan. What you're saying sounds like it's from the meat producing industry's phrasebook, sorry.
    - Kretinsky 3y ago

uxcolumbo 3y ago

Factory farms exist in other countries, not just the US. They exist in China, Europe, etc. The reason why factory farms exist is because it's the cheapest and efficient way to provide animal meat to the masses. You can't do that with grass fed free roaming animal farms. It would be too expensive and require even more land. Why is meat and dairy a better protein source? We don't require tons of protein to thrive [0]. What's important is to have a wholesome diet with a variety of nutrients, not just this obsession with protein. In fact dairy is not ideal for human consumption, see https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/health-concerns-about-dairy https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/nutrition-information/he.... PCRM is a group of medical experts providing evidence based health information. Animals know when they are about to be killed - even with 'responsible slaughtering', it's still an act of immense cruelty. Do you want to be stunned and have your throat slit or a bolt shot through your head? Do animals freely give up their life so we can have some temporary pleasure moment in our mouth or do you think they would fight for their life? Why inflict cruelty on sentient beings and destroy our biosphere when we don't need to? We humans have given up other cruel practices so why not give up killing and torturing Billions of animals each year and progress towards a more humane society? If you have no other food sources or have medical issues and need meat to survive then ignore the above. [0] https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/

Kretinsky 3y ago
— You are using an all-or-nothing rhetoric, which is ideological, not rational. If animal well-being were your concern, you'd seek ethical alternatives, not advocate for abstinence. Yes, factory farms exist everywhere, but you don't have to eat meat from them, especially if you're a dev on HN, I guess you have the spending power to buy alternatives. — Meat and diary have the best protein profile, with no bottlenecks. A young man needs between 1 and 2 grams of protein per kg per day, which is very hard to get with a vegan diet, and implies other problems, such as a surcharge of carbs in your diet. Your link shows tofu as a suitable alternative – it's not, as the phytoestrogen content is an endocrine perturbation for men. — Killing and being killed is normal in the animal world. Animals are often quite cruel, I had a cat when I was young and living in the countryside. I remember seeing him play with mouses and bird that were clearly in pain and about to die. Anyway, if you live in a rich country, your way of life probably causes a lot of pain to humans, too. You know, the people who have to work 12h/day 6 days a week to make the cheap consumption goods you own. The poor laborers that pick your vegetables for a minimum wage, or even less, and will get an early cancer because of the pesticides' exposure. The business consultants who have to face extreme pressure and insane working time to produce a few % more for the retirees that own their company's stock each year. This, just like electric cars, gender issues and climate-change advocacy, is mainly just virtue-signaling from affluent people who do not want that society questions their way of life. You just want to constrain others to assert your domination on society, not solve problems. On my own, I will continue to eat french cheese from the farm near my parent's house, where goats come to the farmer to be milked and are in pasture 8 months of the year. This caloric intake allows me to eat fewer vegetables from slave industrial farms from southern Spain.
- dmbche 3y ago
  - An all or nothing approach is reasonable when discussing life-and-death situations. I'd love for you to find a "suitable alternative" that doesn't exploit animals for profit. How is abstinence unreasonable today, for the average person? - I'm fairly certain you have no background in nutrition, please inform yourself before spewing nonsense. - Phytoestrogen is proven to have no measurable impact on hotmone levels (because it has nothing to do with estrogen, it just looks like it, it's a plant compound while estrogen is made by animals) - Your whataboutism afterwards is just handwaving the issue. Be honest and address it - I doubt you honestly believe that factories to slaughter millions of animals everyday are fine and not an issue - or even relatable to the slave labor you speak of. -

barbazoo 3y ago

Sorry but it's silly to assume animal abuse is only a symptom in the US. Happens all over the world, even in Europe. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/14/farm-animal-abuses-widespread-across-europe-warn-auditors https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/14/farm-ani... > Meat, and animal products (milk, eggs...) are a much better protein source than any plant-based alternative. I'm curious, in what way, what's your metric? This article suggests they're mostly equivalent so why chose the one involving animals at all? https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein#animal-protein-downsides https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/animal-vs-plant-protein...

Kretinsky 3y ago
- Do you imply that industrial farming is the only way to farm? If not, why wouldn't we develop alternatives instead of advocating for abstinence. It's as if you were asking people to be naked in the street because some clothes were made in sweatshops in Asia. - It's elementary. For a protein to be usable by the body, it needs to be complete : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein and in the right amounts. Vegetables don't contain complete proteins generally, so you have to eat a diversified, complex array of food to equate animal products. Animal products are complete, and their profile is very close to what the body needs. Another problem is that “high protein” vegetables usually come with plenty of carbs, or fat in the case of nuts. If you have a high-protein diet because you're a young, active male, you'll end up increasing your caloric intake too much. For instance, in the case of Quinoa, you get 39g of carbs for 8g of lower-quality proteins.
- barbazoo 3y ago
  From what I read, your view is outdated but you do you. Vegetarianism is thousands of years old, there are hundreds of millions of vegetarians and vegans in the world. It's completely possible for almost all people to live vegetarian or vegan. What you're saying sounds like it's from the meat producing industry's phrasebook, sorry.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago