4 ms·

It's really simple. Every grid user should pay retail price for power at the spot retail price when they buy it from the grid Every grid user should be paid r

by sliken 4y ago

It's really simple. Every grid user should pay retail price for power at the spot retail price when they buy it from the grid Every grid user should be paid retail price for power at the spot retail price when they send it to the grid. Every grid user should pay a grid connection fee. So sure, the grid is a "free battery", but time of use is taken into account. If there's a huge spike in electricity prices just after sundown that's fine. People will have an incentive to decrease power use then and produce power then. Suddenly batteries become much more profitable. Users with access to land, wind, water, or geothermal would have incentives to sell power when price is high.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
Why should the grid be forced to pay retail price to homeowners when generators are offering for 10% of the price?
- sliken 4y ago
  Because generators aren't paying their fair share of the grid, a chunk of their power is wasted on transmission losses, etc. If I make 10kw with solar on my roof and someone else in my neighborhood uses it it makes the world a better place. My house is cooler from solar panel shade, have close to zero transmission losses, and I don't stress the expensive long distance/high voltage transmission lines. I also pay a connection fee (say $25) for my 100 amp or whatever service. A generator is usually on cheap land, far from where it's needed, and has a huge cost for the grid to get the power from where it's generated to where it's used.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    It is really a lot more simple than that. You have generators, consumers, and delivery. Generators make power and sell it (Wholesale) The delivery man buys power and pays for transmission infrastructure to move it. Consumers buy power and pay the delivery man (Retail). Transmission costs might be high or low, but it shouldnt matter to the generator or consumer. The delivery man pays for it and it is their incentive to find the cheapest source including transmission.
    - sliken 4y ago
      Say a power plant is 50 miles away. There's substantial cost running the grid 50 miles, buying the contiguous land, building high voltage towers, the copper, the maintenance, the substations, etc. Thus the delivery cost is huge and there's a huge difference between retail (consumers) and large scale generators that get paid wholesale. However if everyone in a neighborhood pays a connection fee to run the local grid, why shouldn't the delivery fee be near zero within the neighborhood. Why should house A get paid wholesale to send power to house B who pays retail? What's the difference between wholesale and retail funding? What's the benefit to society for that difference? This would all work out financially if the "free battery" included time of use. So during peak solar you might get paid retail price of $0.05 kwh, but at solar minumum power might cost $0.25 per kwh. So you'd have to produce 5 kwh at peak solar to pay for 1 kwh at solar minumum. Thus providing an incentive to build more solar, which results in cheaper power, and provides financial incentives for everyone that makes the grid more robust and produce less carbon. Getting paid wholesale reduces the incentive to build home solar. If I could get paid $0.25 per kwh I'd likely install wind (if I had the land) or at least batteries, which is exactly what would benefit the grid. Paying for for distant power generation hurts the world, increases centralization, and increases pollution, transmission losses, wastes land, etc.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        You need the gird either way. Imagine you have a neighbor and a powerplant miles away. You cant rely on your neighbor so you must build a connection to the plant to supply 100% of your need. Imagine the connection costs $100 a month fixed. The plant sells power for $1/kWh. Why would you ever want to pay your neighbor $10/kWh plus the $100/month for the connection? At the end of the day, nobody wants to buy rooftop solar above wholesale rates. The power company doesn't want to, and the other customers don't want to. It is wasteful greenwashing, like cutting down ten trees to plant one. You could provide 10x more clean power industrially for ever 1kwh produced on rooftops. You could do it with far less pollution and waste. Im fine if people want to do it for their own use, or sell it at wholesale rates. Just dont force me to buy expensive power from your pet project when I can get solar energy from someone else for 10% the price.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
In this case are you assuming that the retail price is the same as the wholesale price? Is transmission and distribution fully covered by the connection fee? If so, then the retail price is the wholesale price.
- sliken 4y ago
  > retail = wholesale No. > Is transmission and distribution fully covered by the connection fee? No. Retail cost pays for long distance transmission and distribution. Thus PGE paying some power plant 100 miles away, running high voltage long distance lines, paying for land, paying for towers, paying for transmission losses, maintenance of the towers, substations along the way, etc. > If so, then the retail price is the wholesale price. If I have a 10Kwh surplus and my neighbor uses it. Why should I get paid wholesale and they pay retail? The infrastructure is trivial, just the neighborhoods normal power infrastructure. Why should it subsidize buying land, towers, copper etc to connect to a distant power station, just to send power across a neighbor? The connection to the local power grid is what the connection is for. That way even if a neighborhood uses net zero power over a month, PGE gets the connection fee to run the local grid. I do however believe that the "free battery" should be time of use based. If it's $0.05 per kwh at noon (peak solar or so) and $0.20 at 9pm then you have to contribute 4 kwh at noon to get a "free" kwh at 9pm.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    You aren't selling it to your neighbor. You are selling it to the power company who is then selling it to your neighbor. If the power company had the option, their strong preference would be to buy from a generator 500 miles away for 5-10% the cost. Your neighborhood needs to be connected to the grid because of weather and winter, So the infrastructure needs are fixed. Rooftop solar doesn't help reduce this need for infrastructure. Once they are built, PGE would rather use them to buy from the cheapest generator possible than let transmission sit idle and pay 20x more for a local rooftop generator. Sourcing expensive power locally when available doesnt save PGE or the neighbor anything. It is purely a financial waste for both of them.

by sliken 4y ago

HDThoreaun 4y ago

Why should the grid be forced to pay retail price to homeowners when generators are offering for 10% of the price?

sliken 4y ago
Because generators aren't paying their fair share of the grid, a chunk of their power is wasted on transmission losses, etc. If I make 10kw with solar on my roof and someone else in my neighborhood uses it it makes the world a better place. My house is cooler from solar panel shade, have close to zero transmission losses, and I don't stress the expensive long distance/high voltage transmission lines. I also pay a connection fee (say $25) for my 100 amp or whatever service. A generator is usually on cheap land, far from where it's needed, and has a huge cost for the grid to get the power from where it's generated to where it's used.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  It is really a lot more simple than that. You have generators, consumers, and delivery. Generators make power and sell it (Wholesale) The delivery man buys power and pays for transmission infrastructure to move it. Consumers buy power and pay the delivery man (Retail). Transmission costs might be high or low, but it shouldnt matter to the generator or consumer. The delivery man pays for it and it is their incentive to find the cheapest source including transmission.
  - sliken 4y ago
    Say a power plant is 50 miles away. There's substantial cost running the grid 50 miles, buying the contiguous land, building high voltage towers, the copper, the maintenance, the substations, etc. Thus the delivery cost is huge and there's a huge difference between retail (consumers) and large scale generators that get paid wholesale. However if everyone in a neighborhood pays a connection fee to run the local grid, why shouldn't the delivery fee be near zero within the neighborhood. Why should house A get paid wholesale to send power to house B who pays retail? What's the difference between wholesale and retail funding? What's the benefit to society for that difference? This would all work out financially if the "free battery" included time of use. So during peak solar you might get paid retail price of $0.05 kwh, but at solar minumum power might cost $0.25 per kwh. So you'd have to produce 5 kwh at peak solar to pay for 1 kwh at solar minumum. Thus providing an incentive to build more solar, which results in cheaper power, and provides financial incentives for everyone that makes the grid more robust and produce less carbon. Getting paid wholesale reduces the incentive to build home solar. If I could get paid $0.25 per kwh I'd likely install wind (if I had the land) or at least batteries, which is exactly what would benefit the grid. Paying for for distant power generation hurts the world, increases centralization, and increases pollution, transmission losses, wastes land, etc.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      You need the gird either way. Imagine you have a neighbor and a powerplant miles away. You cant rely on your neighbor so you must build a connection to the plant to supply 100% of your need. Imagine the connection costs $100 a month fixed. The plant sells power for $1/kWh. Why would you ever want to pay your neighbor $10/kWh plus the $100/month for the connection? At the end of the day, nobody wants to buy rooftop solar above wholesale rates. The power company doesn't want to, and the other customers don't want to. It is wasteful greenwashing, like cutting down ten trees to plant one. You could provide 10x more clean power industrially for ever 1kwh produced on rooftops. You could do it with far less pollution and waste. Im fine if people want to do it for their own use, or sell it at wholesale rates. Just dont force me to buy expensive power from your pet project when I can get solar energy from someone else for 10% the price.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

In this case are you assuming that the retail price is the same as the wholesale price? Is transmission and distribution fully covered by the connection fee? If so, then the retail price is the wholesale price.

sliken 4y ago
> retail = wholesale No. > Is transmission and distribution fully covered by the connection fee? No. Retail cost pays for long distance transmission and distribution. Thus PGE paying some power plant 100 miles away, running high voltage long distance lines, paying for land, paying for towers, paying for transmission losses, maintenance of the towers, substations along the way, etc. > If so, then the retail price is the wholesale price. If I have a 10Kwh surplus and my neighbor uses it. Why should I get paid wholesale and they pay retail? The infrastructure is trivial, just the neighborhoods normal power infrastructure. Why should it subsidize buying land, towers, copper etc to connect to a distant power station, just to send power across a neighbor? The connection to the local power grid is what the connection is for. That way even if a neighborhood uses net zero power over a month, PGE gets the connection fee to run the local grid. I do however believe that the "free battery" should be time of use based. If it's $0.05 per kwh at noon (peak solar or so) and $0.20 at 9pm then you have to contribute 4 kwh at noon to get a "free" kwh at 9pm.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  You aren't selling it to your neighbor. You are selling it to the power company who is then selling it to your neighbor. If the power company had the option, their strong preference would be to buy from a generator 500 miles away for 5-10% the cost. Your neighborhood needs to be connected to the grid because of weather and winter, So the infrastructure needs are fixed. Rooftop solar doesn't help reduce this need for infrastructure. Once they are built, PGE would rather use them to buy from the cheapest generator possible than let transmission sit idle and pay 20x more for a local rooftop generator. Sourcing expensive power locally when available doesnt save PGE or the neighbor anything. It is purely a financial waste for both of them.