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Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape

Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape and power characteristics as well as the charging are still areas where companies can innovate and differentiate themselves. I'd rather have to choose a brand than get some out of date, un-ergonomic "approved" battery and connector that I have to use with my tools. It's fundamentally different than phone cables, where the shape of the connector doesn't really matter and was / is purely a lock-in. There are big differences between the choices the cordless tool manufacturers have made re batteries. It's certainly not a place for government mandates.

Lio 4y ago
What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again. I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why? It’s like an xkcd.
- bombcar 4y ago
  12v used to be darn weak, but it’s much stronger now - M12 chainsaws aren’t complete jokes, for example. Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools. At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  > What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools. All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    > Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? Why wouldn't that be a perfectly reasonable thing to do? The default, in fact, unless artificial lock-in was created with bullshit like this.
- notjulianjaynes 3y ago
  There's really only a handful of battery voltages used across all manufacturers. It makes more sense if you think about the series count of a battery pack instead of the advertised voltage. A single lithium ion cell will have a nominal voltage of 3.6v and a "Max" voltage of 4.0v (technically 4.2v, but you can extend the battery life by not charging to 100% capacity). Thus a 10.8v (3 x 3.6v) and a 12v (3 x 4v) are the same thing, just measured differently. As is an 18v (5 x 3.6v) and a 20v "Max" (5 x 4v). 36v and 40v are both 10 cells in series. Etc.
bombcar 4y ago
One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not. The reality is that for most tradesmen and users it’s just not a problem at all. If all your tools are one battery, fine. If one is different then that’s the “toilet plunger battery” or whatever, and if you have an eclectic mix then you probably keep them relatively organized. And if you really really want to you can 3D print or buy adapters with varying success.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  > One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not. Or it's proof that they want you to have to buy their new batteries when your old tool dies.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I’m talking various lines they are currently selling, not old nicads
sgc 4y ago
You can buy adapters from one manufacturer's battery to another's on Amazon for like 20 bucks. It is 100% manufactured scarcity and lock in.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  From TFA: > As many readers might be aware, you can find 3rd party battery adapters on Amazon, eBay, and other such marketplaces.
  - sgc 4y ago
    So, why is anybody arguing it is not just about lock in, when their specs are similar enough that they are interchangeable - more a rarity than the norm in the realm of electronics? It is a pertinent thing to point out, since if the tools work just fine using each other's batteries, any other answer rings hollow in light of it. So, please don't TFA me, it is unsavory and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
      The Torque Test Channel has done several tests with a single tool using different batteries, comparing (usually) the torque the tool can produce with each. E.g. this[1] with a DeWalt impact driver. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZE86NFG4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZE86NFG4M
      - sgc 4y ago
        Well I spent too much time on that channel! For that specific test, he is testing no-name batteries against name brand. But there are adapters like [1] that allow you to use another name brand battery in your tool. That test would be the one that matters. Also, if all tools used a standard battery format, there would be much, much higher quality off brand batteries just because aftermarket products for improving performance would make more sense (along with the sloppy cheap stuff, of course). [1] https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible-Cordless/dp/B09FPPJW5Z https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible...
johnea 4y ago
Almost all of those "innovative" shapes hold the same kinds of battery cells. These could be user replaceable. But really, you could 6 different shapes that would serve 99.99% of the use cases, and the other .1% could have replacable cells. As long as working people deny the descructive forces of profit .vs technical excellence, this won't improve.
jacknews 4y ago
Why can't companies innovate within a standard, and indeed innovate the standard itself, like usb, ethernet, etc?

Lio 4y ago

What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again. I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why? It’s like an xkcd.

bombcar 4y ago
12v used to be darn weak, but it’s much stronger now - M12 chainsaws aren’t complete jokes, for example. Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools. At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
rodgerd 4y ago
> What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools. All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  > Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? Why wouldn't that be a perfectly reasonable thing to do? The default, in fact, unless artificial lock-in was created with bullshit like this.
notjulianjaynes 3y ago
There's really only a handful of battery voltages used across all manufacturers. It makes more sense if you think about the series count of a battery pack instead of the advertised voltage. A single lithium ion cell will have a nominal voltage of 3.6v and a "Max" voltage of 4.0v (technically 4.2v, but you can extend the battery life by not charging to 100% capacity). Thus a 10.8v (3 x 3.6v) and a 12v (3 x 4v) are the same thing, just measured differently. As is an 18v (5 x 3.6v) and a 20v "Max" (5 x 4v). 36v and 40v are both 10 cells in series. Etc.

bombcar 4y ago

One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not. The reality is that for most tradesmen and users it’s just not a problem at all. If all your tools are one battery, fine. If one is different then that’s the “toilet plunger battery” or whatever, and if you have an eclectic mix then you probably keep them relatively organized. And if you really really want to you can 3D print or buy adapters with varying success.

DangitBobby 4y ago
> One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not. Or it's proof that they want you to have to buy their new batteries when your old tool dies.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I’m talking various lines they are currently selling, not old nicads

sgc 4y ago

You can buy adapters from one manufacturer's battery to another's on Amazon for like 20 bucks. It is 100% manufactured scarcity and lock in.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
From TFA: > As many readers might be aware, you can find 3rd party battery adapters on Amazon, eBay, and other such marketplaces.
- sgc 4y ago
  So, why is anybody arguing it is not just about lock in, when their specs are similar enough that they are interchangeable - more a rarity than the norm in the realm of electronics? It is a pertinent thing to point out, since if the tools work just fine using each other's batteries, any other answer rings hollow in light of it. So, please don't TFA me, it is unsavory and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 4y ago
    The Torque Test Channel has done several tests with a single tool using different batteries, comparing (usually) the torque the tool can produce with each. E.g. this[1] with a DeWalt impact driver. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZE86NFG4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZE86NFG4M
    - sgc 4y ago
      Well I spent too much time on that channel! For that specific test, he is testing no-name batteries against name brand. But there are adapters like [1] that allow you to use another name brand battery in your tool. That test would be the one that matters. Also, if all tools used a standard battery format, there would be much, much higher quality off brand batteries just because aftermarket products for improving performance would make more sense (along with the sloppy cheap stuff, of course). [1] https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible-Cordless/dp/B09FPPJW5Z https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible...

johnea 4y ago

Almost all of those "innovative" shapes hold the same kinds of battery cells. These could be user replaceable. But really, you could 6 different shapes that would serve 99.99% of the use cases, and the other .1% could have replacable cells. As long as working people deny the descructive forces of profit .vs technical excellence, this won't improve.

jacknews 4y ago

Why can't companies innovate within a standard, and indeed innovate the standard itself, like usb, ethernet, etc?