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Yep. Centralized solutions can be implemented in a more efficient manner, and don't rely on convincing millions of apathetic individuals to both care and direct

Yep. Centralized solutions can be implemented in a more efficient manner, and don't rely on convincing millions of apathetic individuals to both care and directly spend their money.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 3y ago
Power transmission infrastructure isn't exactly free and if centralized solutions are that much more efficient then how come I can generate my own power for about 7% or so of what it retails for?
- hot_gril 3y ago
  If the home solar were so efficient, then it'd be happening without subsidies. Even with them, break-even point is pretty long. What does your 7% figure include?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Mine is without subsidies. And the break even may be 'pretty long' but it still has a higher ROI than any other thing I could have possibly done with my money. My 7% figure includes TCO / total expected power generated over the lifetime of the system. Note that this isn't the first system I put together but it is by far the largest.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    > it'd be happening without subsidies It is happening without subsidies, at least here in Sweden. I put ~14.5 kW of panels on a barn roof last year without any need for subsidies because I can calculate the payback period on my own 10 fingers. Panels are affordable, inverters are still fairly expensive but a bit of shopping around can give remarkable results. It helps that I did all the work myself and got an electrician to sign off on it - he was impressed and had no problems doing so - but even when you can not do so the payback is still clearly within the lifetime of the system. As it stands now we get to sell power at wholesale rates for the coming 5 years after which we need to renew the contract. If by that time the rules are changed we get a storage battery - I got a hybrid inverter for this purpose - and will start using excess power during the dark hours instead of selling it when it is produced. By that time I expect batteries to have come down in price and/or wholesale prices to have gone up sufficiently for this to be economically feasible, i.e. for the total power stored in them over all charge cycles to come out less expensive than power bought from the distribution network. This is not yet the case but I can wait.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      So if you took a loan for the entire initial investment, when would you break even? In California there are subsidies, and home solar wasn't happening without them before.
      - the_third_wave 3y ago
        I never take loans other than a mortgage (which I paid off), instead I use money I saved up. If you have to take out a loan för the installation the calculation would change depending on how much the sharks take. The installation produces between 12.000 and 15.000 kWh per year which either is used directly (about 1/3) or sold at wholesale rate. Price for 1 kWh varies between ~1.50kr and ~5kr, last winter there were some extremes going up to more than 10kr. The minimum of 1.50kr occurs when electricity is basically free and constitutes taxes and surcharges which are always levied. Average price paid per kWh lies somewhere between 2kr and 4kr. With an average self-consumption of about 1/3 of the production, i.e. 4000-5000 kWh this saves ~13.500kr/year. The rest is sold at market rate plus an additional 0.31kr/kWh feed-in payment from the network operator, the total average ends up somewhere around 1kr/kWh giving around 9000kr/year for a yearly total (savings+income) of ~22.500kr/year. The total cost for the installation was ~130.000kr (66.700kr for the panels, 27.500kr för the inverter, 21.500kr for the mounting hardware, 5000kr for the cables (about half of which is not used yet, meant for future extension), 6000kr for electrical hardware like overcurrent protection, fusing and AC breaker plus a bit for screws, clips and nails. Without compound interest the payback period is 5.7 years, with current low interest levels it is not much more. I can probably deduct part of the investment from taxes so this will bring down the payback period even more, in the end it will be somewhere around 5 years.
        hot_gril 3y ago
        Appreciate the detailed calculations. My coworkers in California were quoting worse, but they probably paid for installation labor. > I never take loans other than a mortgage (which I paid off), instead I use money I saved up So opportunity-cost-wise, you'd have to otherwise invest in something that doubles in value over ~a decade. That's hit-or-miss with stocks in the US at least, so 5.7y break-even on this sounds decent.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Because someone else is footing the bill for the infrastructure that supplies your house when your solar panels aren't producing. It is a classic Free Rider situation.

Yep. Centralized solutions can be implemented in a more efficient manner, and don't rely on convincing millions of apathetic individuals to both care and directly spend their money.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 3y ago

Power transmission infrastructure isn't exactly free and if centralized solutions are that much more efficient then how come I can generate my own power for about 7% or so of what it retails for?

hot_gril 3y ago
If the home solar were so efficient, then it'd be happening without subsidies. Even with them, break-even point is pretty long. What does your 7% figure include?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Mine is without subsidies. And the break even may be 'pretty long' but it still has a higher ROI than any other thing I could have possibly done with my money. My 7% figure includes TCO / total expected power generated over the lifetime of the system. Note that this isn't the first system I put together but it is by far the largest.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > it'd be happening without subsidies It is happening without subsidies, at least here in Sweden. I put ~14.5 kW of panels on a barn roof last year without any need for subsidies because I can calculate the payback period on my own 10 fingers. Panels are affordable, inverters are still fairly expensive but a bit of shopping around can give remarkable results. It helps that I did all the work myself and got an electrician to sign off on it - he was impressed and had no problems doing so - but even when you can not do so the payback is still clearly within the lifetime of the system. As it stands now we get to sell power at wholesale rates for the coming 5 years after which we need to renew the contract. If by that time the rules are changed we get a storage battery - I got a hybrid inverter for this purpose - and will start using excess power during the dark hours instead of selling it when it is produced. By that time I expect batteries to have come down in price and/or wholesale prices to have gone up sufficiently for this to be economically feasible, i.e. for the total power stored in them over all charge cycles to come out less expensive than power bought from the distribution network. This is not yet the case but I can wait.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    So if you took a loan for the entire initial investment, when would you break even? In California there are subsidies, and home solar wasn't happening without them before.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      I never take loans other than a mortgage (which I paid off), instead I use money I saved up. If you have to take out a loan för the installation the calculation would change depending on how much the sharks take. The installation produces between 12.000 and 15.000 kWh per year which either is used directly (about 1/3) or sold at wholesale rate. Price for 1 kWh varies between ~1.50kr and ~5kr, last winter there were some extremes going up to more than 10kr. The minimum of 1.50kr occurs when electricity is basically free and constitutes taxes and surcharges which are always levied. Average price paid per kWh lies somewhere between 2kr and 4kr. With an average self-consumption of about 1/3 of the production, i.e. 4000-5000 kWh this saves ~13.500kr/year. The rest is sold at market rate plus an additional 0.31kr/kWh feed-in payment from the network operator, the total average ends up somewhere around 1kr/kWh giving around 9000kr/year for a yearly total (savings+income) of ~22.500kr/year. The total cost for the installation was ~130.000kr (66.700kr for the panels, 27.500kr för the inverter, 21.500kr for the mounting hardware, 5000kr for the cables (about half of which is not used yet, meant for future extension), 6000kr for electrical hardware like overcurrent protection, fusing and AC breaker plus a bit for screws, clips and nails. Without compound interest the payback period is 5.7 years, with current low interest levels it is not much more. I can probably deduct part of the investment from taxes so this will bring down the payback period even more, in the end it will be somewhere around 5 years.
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        Appreciate the detailed calculations. My coworkers in California were quoting worse, but they probably paid for installation labor. > I never take loans other than a mortgage (which I paid off), instead I use money I saved up So opportunity-cost-wise, you'd have to otherwise invest in something that doubles in value over ~a decade. That's hit-or-miss with stocks in the US at least, so 5.7y break-even on this sounds decent.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Because someone else is footing the bill for the infrastructure that supplies your house when your solar panels aren't producing. It is a classic Free Rider situation.