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Is Nvidia making good on its promise to Open Source it's drivers a d stuff? They may not give us everything but this must be the third or fourth announcement f

Is Nvidia making good on its promise to Open Source it's drivers a d stuff? They may not give us everything but this must be the third or fourth announcement from Nvidia on some open source they are providing I have seen in the past year or so.

kkielhofner 3y ago
Nvidia really hurt themselves with their long-standing closed source driver position. In many circles (like HN) they burned a lot of goodwill and mindshare because of their driver stance and effect it has had on Linux desktop users. It is an extremely tiny population (in terms of numbers) BUT those users (like the HN users) have an outsized impact due to the tendency for them to be in technical and decision making positions. However, Nvidia (other than the driver) has a TON of open source work. In addition to contributions all over the place in the relevant open source ecosystems/projects they have 349 repos on Github[0]. They also have a variety of different organizations on Github (for some reason) like Triton Inference Server that has another 30 repos[1]. If you start wandering through these repos these aren't small efforts either - it's clear Nvidia puts a TON of resources and investment in open source. At the risk of making this another Nvidia vs AMD thread, AMD (the open source desktop darling) by comparison has 39 repos on Github[2]. Their entire project for ML has a total of another 39 repos[3]. If it weren't for the proprietary closed-source desktop driver souring people it would be clear and obvious how much of a supporter of open source Nvidia is. [0] - https://github.com/NVIDIA https://github.com/NVIDIA [1] - https://github.com/triton-inference-server https://github.com/triton-inference-server [2] - https://github.com/amd https://github.com/amd [3] - https://github.com/RadeonOpenCompute https://github.com/RadeonOpenCompute
- nazgulsenpai 3y ago
  NVIDIA open sourcing lots of non-graphic driver codebases doesn't excuse them from open-sourcing their graphic drivers. It's simple really.
  - kkielhofner 3y ago
    I'm not saying it does. Your comment is exactly what I'm talking about "Nvidia has millions of lines of open source" "Yeah but their driver though - they hate open source and I hate them". It's not that simple.
    - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
      I never said they hate open source or that I hate them. I just don't care how much open source they do if the the driver for only product that matters to me isn't open source. Their competitors' drivers are so it makes my decision easy. I'm not sure why it would bother anyone else that I find their lack of open source graphic drivers problematic.
      - paulmd 3y ago
        AMDGPU-pro is closed and there's a lot of features like raytracing that don't work on the open version at all. HDMI 2.1 doesn't work on either open or closed versions afaik (there is a long-running ticket complaining about it). And they also still have blobs too despite all that. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1417 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1417 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/tree/amdgpu https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin... Nobody's drivers are totally open, if you use HDMI then you aren't allowed to be fully open because HDMI Forum won't let you, that's the brightline. You have to have some blobs to deal with them and similar ultimatums from other vendors. If you are ok with something working, as long as it's open, and major features being broken doesn't bother you... might I suggest nouveau? AFAIK NVIDIA has even started addressing the reclocking issue on the newer gens.
        nazgulsenpai 3y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. I didn't suggest the entire stack has to be open source, nor am I looking for a reason to use NVIDIA on Linux. I just think it would be great if NVIDIA open sourced whatever portions of their graphics driver to make the Mesa implementation competitive.
- kimixa 3y ago
  Counting github repos is too dependent on how projects or organized to be anywhere near a useful metric - especially as one of the major advantages of open source is integration to the corresponding open source projects, like the linux kernel and mesa, which aren't under AMD's github. And even then that count misses a large number of projects, like things under OpenGPU (https://github.com/GPUOpen-Drivers https://github.com/GPUOpen-Drivers and https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs) for example. It is in NVidia's best interest to foster the ecosystem around their closed system after all, so long as it's all built upon a foundation they control (Their closed source driver, and proprietary interfaces like CUDA). Nobody thought '90s microsoft was an open source beacon, yet they "gave away" a large amount of code - mainly win32 examples and the like. For someone who claims to be trying to avoid some "Which corporation that doesn't know you exist is the best" fight you have chosen a rather specific unbalanced comparison.
  - bsder 3y ago
    > Counting github repos is too dependent on how projects or organized to be anywhere near a useful metric Agreed. Nvidia have a lot of abandoned Github repos where they dumped code and ran away. This lets them obey the letter of the law and release code without anybody being able to make use of it.
  - kkielhofner 3y ago
    Not sure why or how this is a “fight” other than (as stated in my first comment) it’s one of the more ridiculous religious wars that seems to erupt on HN for reasons I’ll never understand. I’m not going to do a full LoC analysis for an HN comment or analyze recent commits. It was a sixty second way to say “Nvidia has a lot of open source and the reductive HN take/experience from Linux desktop users solely based on their experience with drivers is a tiny piece of the picture”. That said I would bet a dinner that a full analysis of Nvidia open source vs anyone else in the field would favor Nvidia handily.
    - kimixa 3y ago
      > That said I would bet a dinner that a full analysis of Nvidia open source vs anyone else in the field would favor Nvidia handily. It feels a bit weird to agree that any attempt at comparing is silly, and even agreeing on how to compare impossible to define, immediately followed by "But I bet I'd win anyway".
- pjmlp 3y ago
  It is doing just fine in Hollywood, CAD folks and GPGPU. Many companies would dream to hurt themselves that bad.
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  > Nvidia really hurt themselves with their long-standing closed source driver position > In many circles (like HN) they burned a lot of goodwill and mindshare I think Nvidia couldn’t really care less about ‘goodwill and mindshare’ (from HN users, of all places) and I’m sure it is really sad at how badly it is hurt by its closed-source driver position, all while rolling in its tens of billions of profit from its gaming and compute divisions. Oh, and it still has ~90% of the discrete GPU market share.

kkielhofner 3y ago

Nvidia really hurt themselves with their long-standing closed source driver position. In many circles (like HN) they burned a lot of goodwill and mindshare because of their driver stance and effect it has had on Linux desktop users. It is an extremely tiny population (in terms of numbers) BUT those users (like the HN users) have an outsized impact due to the tendency for them to be in technical and decision making positions. However, Nvidia (other than the driver) has a TON of open source work. In addition to contributions all over the place in the relevant open source ecosystems/projects they have 349 repos on Github[0]. They also have a variety of different organizations on Github (for some reason) like Triton Inference Server that has another 30 repos[1]. If you start wandering through these repos these aren't small efforts either - it's clear Nvidia puts a TON of resources and investment in open source. At the risk of making this another Nvidia vs AMD thread, AMD (the open source desktop darling) by comparison has 39 repos on Github[2]. Their entire project for ML has a total of another 39 repos[3]. If it weren't for the proprietary closed-source desktop driver souring people it would be clear and obvious how much of a supporter of open source Nvidia is. [0] - https://github.com/NVIDIA https://github.com/NVIDIA [1] - https://github.com/triton-inference-server https://github.com/triton-inference-server [2] - https://github.com/amd https://github.com/amd [3] - https://github.com/RadeonOpenCompute https://github.com/RadeonOpenCompute

nazgulsenpai 3y ago
NVIDIA open sourcing lots of non-graphic driver codebases doesn't excuse them from open-sourcing their graphic drivers. It's simple really.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  I'm not saying it does. Your comment is exactly what I'm talking about "Nvidia has millions of lines of open source" "Yeah but their driver though - they hate open source and I hate them". It's not that simple.
  - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    I never said they hate open source or that I hate them. I just don't care how much open source they do if the the driver for only product that matters to me isn't open source. Their competitors' drivers are so it makes my decision easy. I'm not sure why it would bother anyone else that I find their lack of open source graphic drivers problematic.
    - paulmd 3y ago
      AMDGPU-pro is closed and there's a lot of features like raytracing that don't work on the open version at all. HDMI 2.1 doesn't work on either open or closed versions afaik (there is a long-running ticket complaining about it). And they also still have blobs too despite all that. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1417 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1417 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/tree/amdgpu https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin... Nobody's drivers are totally open, if you use HDMI then you aren't allowed to be fully open because HDMI Forum won't let you, that's the brightline. You have to have some blobs to deal with them and similar ultimatums from other vendors. If you are ok with something working, as long as it's open, and major features being broken doesn't bother you... might I suggest nouveau? AFAIK NVIDIA has even started addressing the reclocking issue on the newer gens.
      - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
        I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. I didn't suggest the entire stack has to be open source, nor am I looking for a reason to use NVIDIA on Linux. I just think it would be great if NVIDIA open sourced whatever portions of their graphics driver to make the Mesa implementation competitive.
kimixa 3y ago
Counting github repos is too dependent on how projects or organized to be anywhere near a useful metric - especially as one of the major advantages of open source is integration to the corresponding open source projects, like the linux kernel and mesa, which aren't under AMD's github. And even then that count misses a large number of projects, like things under OpenGPU (https://github.com/GPUOpen-Drivers https://github.com/GPUOpen-Drivers and https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs) for example. It is in NVidia's best interest to foster the ecosystem around their closed system after all, so long as it's all built upon a foundation they control (Their closed source driver, and proprietary interfaces like CUDA). Nobody thought '90s microsoft was an open source beacon, yet they "gave away" a large amount of code - mainly win32 examples and the like. For someone who claims to be trying to avoid some "Which corporation that doesn't know you exist is the best" fight you have chosen a rather specific unbalanced comparison.
- bsder 3y ago
  > Counting github repos is too dependent on how projects or organized to be anywhere near a useful metric Agreed. Nvidia have a lot of abandoned Github repos where they dumped code and ran away. This lets them obey the letter of the law and release code without anybody being able to make use of it.
- kkielhofner 3y ago
  Not sure why or how this is a “fight” other than (as stated in my first comment) it’s one of the more ridiculous religious wars that seems to erupt on HN for reasons I’ll never understand. I’m not going to do a full LoC analysis for an HN comment or analyze recent commits. It was a sixty second way to say “Nvidia has a lot of open source and the reductive HN take/experience from Linux desktop users solely based on their experience with drivers is a tiny piece of the picture”. That said I would bet a dinner that a full analysis of Nvidia open source vs anyone else in the field would favor Nvidia handily.
  - kimixa 3y ago
    > That said I would bet a dinner that a full analysis of Nvidia open source vs anyone else in the field would favor Nvidia handily. It feels a bit weird to agree that any attempt at comparing is silly, and even agreeing on how to compare impossible to define, immediately followed by "But I bet I'd win anyway".
pjmlp 3y ago
It is doing just fine in Hollywood, CAD folks and GPGPU. Many companies would dream to hurt themselves that bad.
delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> Nvidia really hurt themselves with their long-standing closed source driver position > In many circles (like HN) they burned a lot of goodwill and mindshare I think Nvidia couldn’t really care less about ‘goodwill and mindshare’ (from HN users, of all places) and I’m sure it is really sad at how badly it is hurt by its closed-source driver position, all while rolling in its tens of billions of profit from its gaming and compute divisions. Oh, and it still has ~90% of the discrete GPU market share.