4 ms·

As we've already seen from twitter releasing the algorithm: it's useless & irrelevant without the weights.

by rektide 4y ago

klyrs 4y ago
Release the weights too?
- AzzieElbab 4y ago
  in real-time :)
crooked-v 4y ago
Then the weights should be considered a functional part of the algorithm.
- sidfthec 4y ago
  The weights aren't going to help understand "why we see what we see", which is what non-tech people (and this article) think they'll get from companies releasing "the algorithm"
esafak 4y ago
Worse, people game the algorithm, making it useless.
BaseballPhysics 4y ago
I totally disagree. For example, Twitter releasing the algorithm showed us that certain specific people were getting artificially boosted. We also saw that the topic of the war in Ukraine was getting special treatment. Yes, we all guessed that was happening, but without the code it was just supposition that Twitter could deny.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Twitter releasing the algorithm showed us that certain specific people were getting artificially boosted. It did? Did I miss something here? I don't remember seeing that. There was certainly code that tallied certain specific people and topics, but I don't see an indication of what was done with that tally.
  - BaseballPhysics 4y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/28/23659842/twitter-boost-elon-musk-dril-mrbeast-algorithm-accounts https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/28/23659842/twitter-boost-el... > To help assuage Musk’s concerns, Platformer reports that Twitter’s engineers created a way to “tweak” the site’s ranking system when they noticed a high-profile user’s engagement dropping, ensuring “that tweets from those accounts were always shown.” That’s part of the reason why users saw Musk all over their timelines in February, as it essentially exempts these accounts from Twitter’s algorithm (although Platformer says Musk’s boost was different from what all the other users receive). https://gizmodo.com/twitter-algorithm-aoc-ben-shapiro-catturd2-1850272655 https://gizmodo.com/twitter-algorithm-aoc-ben-shapiro-cattur... > In February, Twitter rolled out a system to boost Musk’s tweets over everyone else’s and began boosting the tweets of these VIPS, albeit to a lesser extent. https://gizmodo.com/twitter-musk-ukraine-crisis-open-source-code-russia-1850293386 https://gizmodo.com/twitter-musk-ukraine-crisis-open-source-... > Misinformation is highly down-ranked > Anything that is categorized as misinformation gets the rug pulled out from under it. > Surprisingly, so are posts about Ukraine. ... > Late on Monday, Gupta told Gizmodo that “upon further investigation” he and his fellows looking into the Twitter code found that it only applies to Twitter Spaces, the platform’s live meeting feature.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Right, but none of those things were disclosed in the algorithm's release. They were disclosed prior to that. I though that perhaps you were talking about something new.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- rektide 4y ago
  One, no one will ever be this careless again. Two, Twitter claims that whole area was for telemetry. This comment does a massive disservice & deeply injures the cause for real transparency. It does it by making a very cheap shot at a very dumb situation. To say that this makes not having the models OK or interesting or useful? I highly protest. This is a sad distracting sideshow & letting oneself be lured & baited into thinking this little morsel is filling or informative is... Ughh I just can't no, that's just so low a position.
Buttons840 4y ago
We can't run the algorithm without the weights, be we can understand it -- or rather, we can understand it as much as it's possible for anyone to understand it. Having the weights will not add understanding. Having the loss function used during training will.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Having the weights will not add understanding. Yes, it will, because with weights you can run it against constructed data, and that kind of experiment with the actual algorithm (including weights) is a much better source of practical understanding than abstract analysis of the algorithm without weights.
- rektide 4y ago
  Your perspective seems to be that I'm not asking for nearly enough, and I 100% agree & apologize for under representing the threat to society & opacity of the new enemy of democratic social good. Thank you & yes yes yes. We also need the training data too.

As we've already seen from twitter releasing the algorithm: it's useless & irrelevant without the weights.

klyrs 4y ago

Release the weights too?

AzzieElbab 4y ago
in real-time :)

crooked-v 4y ago

Then the weights should be considered a functional part of the algorithm.

sidfthec 4y ago
The weights aren't going to help understand "why we see what we see", which is what non-tech people (and this article) think they'll get from companies releasing "the algorithm"

esafak 4y ago

Worse, people game the algorithm, making it useless.

BaseballPhysics 4y ago

I totally disagree. For example, Twitter releasing the algorithm showed us that certain specific people were getting artificially boosted. We also saw that the topic of the war in Ukraine was getting special treatment. Yes, we all guessed that was happening, but without the code it was just supposition that Twitter could deny.

JohnFen 4y ago
> Twitter releasing the algorithm showed us that certain specific people were getting artificially boosted. It did? Did I miss something here? I don't remember seeing that. There was certainly code that tallied certain specific people and topics, but I don't see an indication of what was done with that tally.
- BaseballPhysics 4y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/28/23659842/twitter-boost-elon-musk-dril-mrbeast-algorithm-accounts https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/28/23659842/twitter-boost-el... > To help assuage Musk’s concerns, Platformer reports that Twitter’s engineers created a way to “tweak” the site’s ranking system when they noticed a high-profile user’s engagement dropping, ensuring “that tweets from those accounts were always shown.” That’s part of the reason why users saw Musk all over their timelines in February, as it essentially exempts these accounts from Twitter’s algorithm (although Platformer says Musk’s boost was different from what all the other users receive). https://gizmodo.com/twitter-algorithm-aoc-ben-shapiro-catturd2-1850272655 https://gizmodo.com/twitter-algorithm-aoc-ben-shapiro-cattur... > In February, Twitter rolled out a system to boost Musk’s tweets over everyone else’s and began boosting the tweets of these VIPS, albeit to a lesser extent. https://gizmodo.com/twitter-musk-ukraine-crisis-open-source-code-russia-1850293386 https://gizmodo.com/twitter-musk-ukraine-crisis-open-source-... > Misinformation is highly down-ranked > Anything that is categorized as misinformation gets the rug pulled out from under it. > Surprisingly, so are posts about Ukraine. ... > Late on Monday, Gupta told Gizmodo that “upon further investigation” he and his fellows looking into the Twitter code found that it only applies to Twitter Spaces, the platform’s live meeting feature.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    Right, but none of those things were disclosed in the algorithm's release. They were disclosed prior to that. I though that perhaps you were talking about something new.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
rektide 4y ago
One, no one will ever be this careless again. Two, Twitter claims that whole area was for telemetry. This comment does a massive disservice & deeply injures the cause for real transparency. It does it by making a very cheap shot at a very dumb situation. To say that this makes not having the models OK or interesting or useful? I highly protest. This is a sad distracting sideshow & letting oneself be lured & baited into thinking this little morsel is filling or informative is... Ughh I just can't no, that's just so low a position.

Buttons840 4y ago

We can't run the algorithm without the weights, be we can understand it -- or rather, we can understand it as much as it's possible for anyone to understand it. Having the weights will not add understanding. Having the loss function used during training will.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Having the weights will not add understanding. Yes, it will, because with weights you can run it against constructed data, and that kind of experiment with the actual algorithm (including weights) is a much better source of practical understanding than abstract analysis of the algorithm without weights.
rektide 4y ago
Your perspective seems to be that I'm not asking for nearly enough, and I 100% agree & apologize for under representing the threat to society & opacity of the new enemy of democratic social good. Thank you & yes yes yes. We also need the training data too.