4 ms·

Unfortunately the various hoof-in-mouth statements (about child-adult sex, the Esptein-Minsky remarks) aren't the main reason people are seeking to "cancel" RMS

Unfortunately the various hoof-in-mouth statements (about child-adult sex, the Esptein-Minsky remarks) aren't the main reason people are seeking to "cancel" RMS. Rather, it's that he apparently had something of habit of hitting on students, and otherwise "creating a negative environment" for women at MIT. Oh, and for the mattress. At least, that's what people have said (according to sources very easily findable). In the words of one of the persons affected: I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” — Bachelor’s in Computer Science, ’04

seba_dos1 4y ago
Putting aside any other stuff that gets said about him, I find it pretty baffling how an obvious joke made at Stallman's expense (that many of us geeks have heard directed towards us, usually as a lighthearted self-deprecating inner circle humor) gets repeated as an example that's somehow supposed to characterize his misconduct.
- lisasays 4y ago
  The point is that these women had an apparently justified need to be concerned about unwanted sexual advances a certain senior staff member. And to be prepared to fend them off if necessary. It wasn't about dorky geek humor, or making fun of RMS per se.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    I get it that this is how people are reading it, but "tell him you're a vim user" strongly suggests intention of humor.
    - lisasays 4y ago
      Disagree. While it contained a dose of humor -- the primary message clearly was not humor, but the serious need to warn others about the need to be wary of this guy. As buttressed by the data points in the sibling comment to mine.
      - raxxorraxor 4y ago
        It strongly suggest that it is a reference to the editor war. Very probable that Stallman hitting on students never happened and it was indeed a vehicle of humor. In any case, if it did happen, there need to be primary sources, not some bad faith rumors.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        lisasays 4y ago
        Very probable that Stallman hitting on students never happened Don't know what to tell you other than that this belief is plainly at odds with numerous credible accounts to the contrary.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        Which numerous credible accounts? I believe this was more likely a smear campaign and some might have jumped on the train considering the nature of the accusations. http://techrights.org/2021/04/24/rms-false-accusations/ http://techrights.org/2021/04/24/rms-false-accusations/ For accusations of this kind, some evidence must be provided.
        lisasays 4y ago
        Which numerous credible accounts? We're going in circles here. You know the citation I'm referring to; you also know that the source you're linking to mostly doesn't address those items (except for one, and mostly by spin and in a way I just don't credible). Some might have jumped on the train considering the nature of the accusations. As if women don't know when they're being hit on.
        lisasays 4y ago
        Also, talk about a non-apology: Betsy S, I regret that this misunderstanding caused you distress. I never intended to demand anything of you. I only ever wished you well. "Betsy, I regret that with this misunderstanding on your part, you caused yourself distress. But it certainly wasn't in any way a reasonable consequence of anything I said. I only ever wished you the sublime wellness of an acquaintance with me." Note he doesn't deny stating that he would kill himself as a result of of her failing to see just how "well" she would be if she were to go out with him.
- eesmith 4y ago
  That one's easy to remember, because of humor. When this came up 4 years ago I listed a few other examples. Citation links at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008835 "he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me)." "He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left." "I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."" "rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT" Those don't have something to hang a joke on, so aren't passed on at much.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    The plant thing is yet another obvious joke made at Stallman's expense. At MIT, Stallman was not seen as some kind of powerful figure whose authority people would be afraid to challenge. He was seen as an awkward irritating nerd many people made fun of (which seems to be missed by pretty much all of these "newcomers being warned about Stallman" reports). With so many of these accusations boiling down just to "people don't like nerds", it's hard to take them seriously. And when you add things like giving "pleasure cards" being interpreted as unwanted advances, it's just a painful to watch sad grotesque.

seba_dos1 4y ago

Putting aside any other stuff that gets said about him, I find it pretty baffling how an obvious joke made at Stallman's expense (that many of us geeks have heard directed towards us, usually as a lighthearted self-deprecating inner circle humor) gets repeated as an example that's somehow supposed to characterize his misconduct.

lisasays 4y ago
The point is that these women had an apparently justified need to be concerned about unwanted sexual advances a certain senior staff member. And to be prepared to fend them off if necessary. It wasn't about dorky geek humor, or making fun of RMS per se.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  I get it that this is how people are reading it, but "tell him you're a vim user" strongly suggests intention of humor.
  - lisasays 4y ago
    Disagree. While it contained a dose of humor -- the primary message clearly was not humor, but the serious need to warn others about the need to be wary of this guy. As buttressed by the data points in the sibling comment to mine.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      It strongly suggest that it is a reference to the editor war. Very probable that Stallman hitting on students never happened and it was indeed a vehicle of humor. In any case, if it did happen, there need to be primary sources, not some bad faith rumors.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - lisasays 4y ago
        Very probable that Stallman hitting on students never happened Don't know what to tell you other than that this belief is plainly at odds with numerous credible accounts to the contrary.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        Which numerous credible accounts? I believe this was more likely a smear campaign and some might have jumped on the train considering the nature of the accusations. http://techrights.org/2021/04/24/rms-false-accusations/ http://techrights.org/2021/04/24/rms-false-accusations/ For accusations of this kind, some evidence must be provided.
        lisasays 4y ago
        Which numerous credible accounts? We're going in circles here. You know the citation I'm referring to; you also know that the source you're linking to mostly doesn't address those items (except for one, and mostly by spin and in a way I just don't credible). Some might have jumped on the train considering the nature of the accusations. As if women don't know when they're being hit on.
        lisasays 4y ago
        Also, talk about a non-apology: Betsy S, I regret that this misunderstanding caused you distress. I never intended to demand anything of you. I only ever wished you well. "Betsy, I regret that with this misunderstanding on your part, you caused yourself distress. But it certainly wasn't in any way a reasonable consequence of anything I said. I only ever wished you the sublime wellness of an acquaintance with me." Note he doesn't deny stating that he would kill himself as a result of of her failing to see just how "well" she would be if she were to go out with him.
eesmith 4y ago
That one's easy to remember, because of humor. When this came up 4 years ago I listed a few other examples. Citation links at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008835 "he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me)." "He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left." "I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."" "rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT" Those don't have something to hang a joke on, so aren't passed on at much.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  The plant thing is yet another obvious joke made at Stallman's expense. At MIT, Stallman was not seen as some kind of powerful figure whose authority people would be afraid to challenge. He was seen as an awkward irritating nerd many people made fun of (which seems to be missed by pretty much all of these "newcomers being warned about Stallman" reports). With so many of these accusations boiling down just to "people don't like nerds", it's hard to take them seriously. And when you add things like giving "pleasure cards" being interpreted as unwanted advances, it's just a painful to watch sad grotesque.