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https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/202

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman... I was out of the loop about what Stallman was being smeared for. "Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it," Stallman wrote. "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per [sic] psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why."

arrakeen 3y ago
> per [sic] "per" was a pretty early non-gendered pronoun, i'm surprised the editor wasn't aware of it in 2021
- iamerroragent 3y ago
  I think it still works to inform the reader that 'per' was intended. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-usage-editorial-citation https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-us...
  - arrakeen 3y ago
    TIL -- thanks!
hooverd 3y ago
I love Stallman's views on free and open source software, but the FSF needs to get him an assistant or handler or something.
- summarity 3y ago
  Good luck with that: https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    As riders go, I've seen far worse.
  - npace12 3y ago
    thats like almost a perfect ChatGPT prompt lol
hammyhavoc 3y ago
I'm of the opinion that people who are known for x, e.g., their opinions on FOSS, should stay in their lane and only really discuss topics they have a good grasp of, otherwise they're soon going to be lambasted for any momentary lapse of judgement or lack of knowledge. That isn't to say that I'm saying Stallman should shut the fuck up about anything that isn't software, but I am saying that it's a problem that would have been easily avoided with common sense applied. If you are in the public eye, and your career depends on your reputation and public image, it would be beneficial to have a third-party coach you through basics of interacting with press, thinking many times before speaking etc. Nobody asked him for these opinions. He's the last person I'd want an opinion on these topics from, and all I want to hear about from Stallman is FOSS, maybe culture. Nothing else, that's not what he's known for.
- david_draco 3y ago
  You are mistaken to think Stallman is primarily a software person. He is a leader of a social movement, with social goals (freedom from the shackles of proprietary software) achieved by strategic investment in software development and legal battles over the decades. From this lens, it is quite his lane.
- annoyingnoob 3y ago
  I find it hard to support him because I do not trust that he will not continue being himself and create another controversy in the future.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    I don't think people like Stallman need to be actively supported. If what they have to say is valuable then that's what counts, especially if he is genuine in his activism. Whilst Stallman has made a lot of very astute and smart observations and contributions throughout his lifetime, he's increasingly irrelevant in a world that's changed many times over since he was last truly relevant to what's happening for anybody. He's a great speaker and writer, he's fascinating to listen to, but some arguments of his lack substance and solutions other than "this is bad, so don't use it".
voytec 3y ago
Here's[1] the quoted statement. But given that this was brought up in relation to Esptein case, there's[2] also a fragment about "mischaracterised" media coverage from the same day: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
gray5 3y ago
[dead]
safety1st 3y ago
That was an old statement. It wasn't that statement which prompted the pressure to resign. He said two things that caused the uproar: These are the two things he said that were controversial and prompted the pressure to resign: 1) He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. 2) He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US (including the state Stallman lives in) so I don't find that second statement terribly controversial. The real problem was that this was all said in the context of Minsky and Epstein when the pitchforks were out. Stallman denounced Epstein several times but he was friends with Minsky and didn't like the accusations against Minsky being mischaracterized.
- tzs 3y ago
  > He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. Not quite. He said that when the woman was told to go offer sex to Epstein's guests she would have been told to make it seem like it was consensual. This should not have been controversial. Of course someone forcing someone else to offer people sex is going to instruct them not to let on that they are being forced. > He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. In this particular case, she was over the age of consent. Sometime later, in part in response to the Epstein situation, they raised the age of consent to 18. > The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US It is 16 or under in most of Europe [1]. Age # of Countries 18 3 17 2 16 20 15 12 14 14 [1] https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe

arrakeen 3y ago

> per [sic] "per" was a pretty early non-gendered pronoun, i'm surprised the editor wasn't aware of it in 2021

iamerroragent 3y ago
I think it still works to inform the reader that 'per' was intended. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-usage-editorial-citation https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-us...
- arrakeen 3y ago
  TIL -- thanks!

hooverd 3y ago

I love Stallman's views on free and open source software, but the FSF needs to get him an assistant or handler or something.

summarity 3y ago
Good luck with that: https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  As riders go, I've seen far worse.
- npace12 3y ago
  thats like almost a perfect ChatGPT prompt lol

hammyhavoc 3y ago

I'm of the opinion that people who are known for x, e.g., their opinions on FOSS, should stay in their lane and only really discuss topics they have a good grasp of, otherwise they're soon going to be lambasted for any momentary lapse of judgement or lack of knowledge. That isn't to say that I'm saying Stallman should shut the fuck up about anything that isn't software, but I am saying that it's a problem that would have been easily avoided with common sense applied. If you are in the public eye, and your career depends on your reputation and public image, it would be beneficial to have a third-party coach you through basics of interacting with press, thinking many times before speaking etc. Nobody asked him for these opinions. He's the last person I'd want an opinion on these topics from, and all I want to hear about from Stallman is FOSS, maybe culture. Nothing else, that's not what he's known for.

david_draco 3y ago
You are mistaken to think Stallman is primarily a software person. He is a leader of a social movement, with social goals (freedom from the shackles of proprietary software) achieved by strategic investment in software development and legal battles over the decades. From this lens, it is quite his lane.
annoyingnoob 3y ago
I find it hard to support him because I do not trust that he will not continue being himself and create another controversy in the future.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  I don't think people like Stallman need to be actively supported. If what they have to say is valuable then that's what counts, especially if he is genuine in his activism. Whilst Stallman has made a lot of very astute and smart observations and contributions throughout his lifetime, he's increasingly irrelevant in a world that's changed many times over since he was last truly relevant to what's happening for anybody. He's a great speaker and writer, he's fascinating to listen to, but some arguments of his lack substance and solutions other than "this is bad, so don't use it".

voytec 3y ago

Here's[1] the quoted statement. But given that this was brought up in relation to Esptein case, there's[2] also a fragment about "mischaracterised" media coverage from the same day: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...

gray5 3y ago

[dead]

safety1st 3y ago

That was an old statement. It wasn't that statement which prompted the pressure to resign. He said two things that caused the uproar: These are the two things he said that were controversial and prompted the pressure to resign: 1) He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. 2) He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US (including the state Stallman lives in) so I don't find that second statement terribly controversial. The real problem was that this was all said in the context of Minsky and Epstein when the pitchforks were out. Stallman denounced Epstein several times but he was friends with Minsky and didn't like the accusations against Minsky being mischaracterized.

tzs 3y ago
> He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. Not quite. He said that when the woman was told to go offer sex to Epstein's guests she would have been told to make it seem like it was consensual. This should not have been controversial. Of course someone forcing someone else to offer people sex is going to instruct them not to let on that they are being forced. > He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. In this particular case, she was over the age of consent. Sometime later, in part in response to the Epstein situation, they raised the age of consent to 18. > The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US It is 16 or under in most of Europe [1]. Age # of Countries 18 3 17 2 16 20 15 12 14 14 [1] https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe