6 ms·

In Support of Richard Stallman

52 points by marcodiego 4y ago

iamerroragent 4y ago
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman... I was out of the loop about what Stallman was being smeared for. "Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it," Stallman wrote. "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per [sic] psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why."
- arrakeen 4y ago
  > per [sic] "per" was a pretty early non-gendered pronoun, i'm surprised the editor wasn't aware of it in 2021
  - iamerroragent 4y ago
    I think it still works to inform the reader that 'per' was intended. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-usage-editorial-citation https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-us...
    - arrakeen 4y ago
      TIL -- thanks!
- hooverd 4y ago
  I love Stallman's views on free and open source software, but the FSF needs to get him an assistant or handler or something.
  - summarity 4y ago
    Good luck with that: https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      As riders go, I've seen far worse.
    - npace12 4y ago
      thats like almost a perfect ChatGPT prompt lol
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  I'm of the opinion that people who are known for x, e.g., their opinions on FOSS, should stay in their lane and only really discuss topics they have a good grasp of, otherwise they're soon going to be lambasted for any momentary lapse of judgement or lack of knowledge. That isn't to say that I'm saying Stallman should shut the fuck up about anything that isn't software, but I am saying that it's a problem that would have been easily avoided with common sense applied. If you are in the public eye, and your career depends on your reputation and public image, it would be beneficial to have a third-party coach you through basics of interacting with press, thinking many times before speaking etc. Nobody asked him for these opinions. He's the last person I'd want an opinion on these topics from, and all I want to hear about from Stallman is FOSS, maybe culture. Nothing else, that's not what he's known for.
  - david_draco 4y ago
    You are mistaken to think Stallman is primarily a software person. He is a leader of a social movement, with social goals (freedom from the shackles of proprietary software) achieved by strategic investment in software development and legal battles over the decades. From this lens, it is quite his lane.
  - annoyingnoob 4y ago
    I find it hard to support him because I do not trust that he will not continue being himself and create another controversy in the future.
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      I don't think people like Stallman need to be actively supported. If what they have to say is valuable then that's what counts, especially if he is genuine in his activism. Whilst Stallman has made a lot of very astute and smart observations and contributions throughout his lifetime, he's increasingly irrelevant in a world that's changed many times over since he was last truly relevant to what's happening for anybody. He's a great speaker and writer, he's fascinating to listen to, but some arguments of his lack substance and solutions other than "this is bad, so don't use it".
- voytec 4y ago
  Here's[1] the quoted statement. But given that this was brought up in relation to Esptein case, there's[2] also a fragment about "mischaracterised" media coverage from the same day: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
- gray5 4y ago
  [dead]
- safety1st 4y ago
  That was an old statement. It wasn't that statement which prompted the pressure to resign. He said two things that caused the uproar: These are the two things he said that were controversial and prompted the pressure to resign: 1) He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. 2) He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US (including the state Stallman lives in) so I don't find that second statement terribly controversial. The real problem was that this was all said in the context of Minsky and Epstein when the pitchforks were out. Stallman denounced Epstein several times but he was friends with Minsky and didn't like the accusations against Minsky being mischaracterized.
  - tzs 4y ago
    > He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. Not quite. He said that when the woman was told to go offer sex to Epstein's guests she would have been told to make it seem like it was consensual. This should not have been controversial. Of course someone forcing someone else to offer people sex is going to instruct them not to let on that they are being forced. > He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. In this particular case, she was over the age of consent. Sometime later, in part in response to the Epstein situation, they raised the age of consent to 18. > The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US It is 16 or under in most of Europe [1]. Age # of Countries 18 3 17 2 16 20 15 12 14 14 [1] https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe
bluetomcat 4y ago
The guy is a hologram of a 1960s hippie, with almost no meaningful stuff to say about the current world. He should probably be writing philosophical books in his own solitude, instead of expressing opinions about stuff he is detached from.
- lisasays 4y ago
  Disagree. He has as much right to express himself about stuff he has a meaningful understanding of, or otherwise, in any forum that will have him, as you do. If you don't care for what he says, you can just ignore him. I won't comment on "hologram of a 1960s hippie" because you said it like it's a bad thing.
barbariangrunge 4y ago
I’m not extremely informed, but the former president of the aclu defended stallman a few years ago. Scroll down to about 2/3rds of the way down for the detailed quotes Eg, > But a number of the ideas for which Richard Stallman has been attacked and punished are ideas that I as a feminist advocate of human rights find completely correct and positive from the perspective of women’s equality and dignity! https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
and0 4y ago
From https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman...: > "I have an announcement to make," Stallman said at the FSF's LibrePlanet conference. "I'm now on the Free Software Foundation board of directors once again... Some of you will be happy at this and some might be disappointed, but who knows. In any case, that's how it is. And I'm not planning to resign a second time." I get that not everyone is perfectly well rounded but how do you fail at messaging this poorly? "...some might be disappointed, but who knows. In any case, that's how it is." Just a giant middle finger. I'm sure plenty of Stallman-types will say everyone is not being generous enough or that cancel culture is going too far, but your job on the board of a foundation is implicitly a social one and if you can't not piss off 90% of the people around you then you are still bad at your job and unfit for it.
gettodachoppa 4y ago
Richard Stallman is a victim of the NGO/Media Industrial Complex. His aloofness makes it easier for him to be a target, but let's be honest, if those people want someone taken down, it will happen. People need to be a little less gullible when they see a news campaign trying to take out yet another anti-establishment voice. In a world where propaganda and manipulation have never been so powerful and coordinated, just because a bunch of voices start yelling smoke, doesn't mean there's fire. Or doesn't mean that the fire is anything more than a lit match not deserving your attention. The selective guidance of your attention and outrage always end up doing one thing: supporting the goals of the 1% at the expense of the 99%. Also people need to show more tolerance for someone having the occasional wrongthink (especially since he says he was convinced and changed his mind about adult/child sex years ago). Stallman is human, same as you. Unless you're an NPC, you almost certainly have one or two beliefs that would get you targeted and canceled if people found out about it. If you say you don't, if all your beliefs happen to line up with the Twitterati on every issue, then perhaps you should engage in some self-reflection. (EDIT: removed some unnecessary language)
throway348576 4y ago
The thing is that some of what is brought in his defense contains inaccuracies. Example "Trans Women Do Not Harass Anyone". There are numerous such cases, be it activists indulging in such methods for political purposes or plain old creeps. I know the subject is touchy. I am not saying it is the norm. I am saying such things have happened multiple times. I know people are reluctant to admit such facts as they feel it paints a target on a community. However, I do not believe that it is ever just to discard instances of malevolence, regardless of the perpetrator's identity. And the actions of individuals are their responsibility, not that of their identity group. I know that for many this humanist outlook has been superseded by a collectivist one, where society is merely a collection of overlapping and competing identity-based factions.
lisasays 4y ago
Unfortunately the various hoof-in-mouth statements (about child-adult sex, the Esptein-Minsky remarks) aren't the main reason people are seeking to "cancel" RMS. Rather, it's that he apparently had something of habit of hitting on students, and otherwise "creating a negative environment" for women at MIT. Oh, and for the mattress. At least, that's what people have said (according to sources very easily findable). In the words of one of the persons affected: I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” — Bachelor’s in Computer Science, ’04
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  Putting aside any other stuff that gets said about him, I find it pretty baffling how an obvious joke made at Stallman's expense (that many of us geeks have heard directed towards us, usually as a lighthearted self-deprecating inner circle humor) gets repeated as an example that's somehow supposed to characterize his misconduct.
  - lisasays 4y ago
    The point is that these women had an apparently justified need to be concerned about unwanted sexual advances a certain senior staff member. And to be prepared to fend them off if necessary. It wasn't about dorky geek humor, or making fun of RMS per se.
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      I get it that this is how people are reading it, but "tell him you're a vim user" strongly suggests intention of humor.
      - lisasays 4y ago
        Disagree. While it contained a dose of humor -- the primary message clearly was not humor, but the serious need to warn others about the need to be wary of this guy. As buttressed by the data points in the sibling comment to mine.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
Why is this flagged?
anuraaga 4y ago
I don't particularly have any opinion on the person, but do think that a biography written by a journalist known for diving deep, or such, would be far more impactful than a curated list from fans.

52 points by marcodiego 4y ago

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman... I was out of the loop about what Stallman was being smeared for. "Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it," Stallman wrote. "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per [sic] psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why."

arrakeen 4y ago
> per [sic] "per" was a pretty early non-gendered pronoun, i'm surprised the editor wasn't aware of it in 2021
- iamerroragent 4y ago
  I think it still works to inform the reader that 'per' was intended. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-usage-editorial-citation https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sic-meaning-us...
  - arrakeen 4y ago
    TIL -- thanks!
hooverd 4y ago
I love Stallman's views on free and open source software, but the FSF needs to get him an assistant or handler or something.
- summarity 4y ago
  Good luck with that: https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    As riders go, I've seen far worse.
  - npace12 4y ago
    thats like almost a perfect ChatGPT prompt lol
hammyhavoc 4y ago
I'm of the opinion that people who are known for x, e.g., their opinions on FOSS, should stay in their lane and only really discuss topics they have a good grasp of, otherwise they're soon going to be lambasted for any momentary lapse of judgement or lack of knowledge. That isn't to say that I'm saying Stallman should shut the fuck up about anything that isn't software, but I am saying that it's a problem that would have been easily avoided with common sense applied. If you are in the public eye, and your career depends on your reputation and public image, it would be beneficial to have a third-party coach you through basics of interacting with press, thinking many times before speaking etc. Nobody asked him for these opinions. He's the last person I'd want an opinion on these topics from, and all I want to hear about from Stallman is FOSS, maybe culture. Nothing else, that's not what he's known for.
- david_draco 4y ago
  You are mistaken to think Stallman is primarily a software person. He is a leader of a social movement, with social goals (freedom from the shackles of proprietary software) achieved by strategic investment in software development and legal battles over the decades. From this lens, it is quite his lane.
- annoyingnoob 4y ago
  I find it hard to support him because I do not trust that he will not continue being himself and create another controversy in the future.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    I don't think people like Stallman need to be actively supported. If what they have to say is valuable then that's what counts, especially if he is genuine in his activism. Whilst Stallman has made a lot of very astute and smart observations and contributions throughout his lifetime, he's increasingly irrelevant in a world that's changed many times over since he was last truly relevant to what's happening for anybody. He's a great speaker and writer, he's fascinating to listen to, but some arguments of his lack substance and solutions other than "this is bad, so don't use it".
voytec 4y ago
Here's[1] the quoted statement. But given that this was brought up in relation to Esptein case, there's[2] also a fragment about "mischaracterised" media coverage from the same day: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. > I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Statements_about_Epstein) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September...
gray5 4y ago
[dead]
safety1st 4y ago
That was an old statement. It wasn't that statement which prompted the pressure to resign. He said two things that caused the uproar: These are the two things he said that were controversial and prompted the pressure to resign: 1) He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. 2) He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US (including the state Stallman lives in) so I don't find that second statement terribly controversial. The real problem was that this was all said in the context of Minsky and Epstein when the pitchforks were out. Stallman denounced Epstein several times but he was friends with Minsky and didn't like the accusations against Minsky being mischaracterized.
- tzs 4y ago
  > He said that Marvin Minsky's sexual misconduct was being mischaracterized as violent sexual assault when no evidence existed of that, as far as I know he was correct about this. Not quite. He said that when the woman was told to go offer sex to Epstein's guests she would have been told to make it seem like it was consensual. This should not have been controversial. Of course someone forcing someone else to offer people sex is going to instruct them not to let on that they are being forced. > He said that in his opinion the difference between having sex with a 17 year old and an 18 year old was not so great that one of them should be referred to as rape, regardless of the age of consent where it happened. In this particular case, she was over the age of consent. Sometime later, in part in response to the Epstein situation, they raised the age of consent to 18. > The age of consent is 16 in well over half of the US It is 16 or under in most of Europe [1]. Age # of Countries 18 3 17 2 16 20 15 12 14 14 [1] https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe

bluetomcat 4y ago

The guy is a hologram of a 1960s hippie, with almost no meaningful stuff to say about the current world. He should probably be writing philosophical books in his own solitude, instead of expressing opinions about stuff he is detached from.

lisasays 4y ago
Disagree. He has as much right to express himself about stuff he has a meaningful understanding of, or otherwise, in any forum that will have him, as you do. If you don't care for what he says, you can just ignore him. I won't comment on "hologram of a 1960s hippie" because you said it like it's a bad thing.

barbariangrunge 4y ago

I’m not extremely informed, but the former president of the aclu defended stallman a few years ago. Scroll down to about 2/3rds of the way down for the detailed quotes Eg, > But a number of the ideas for which Richard Stallman has been attacked and punished are ideas that I as a feminist advocate of human rights find completely correct and positive from the perspective of women’s equality and dignity! https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

and0 4y ago

From https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman-returns-to-fsf-18-months-after-controversial-rape-comments/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/richard-stallman...: > "I have an announcement to make," Stallman said at the FSF's LibrePlanet conference. "I'm now on the Free Software Foundation board of directors once again... Some of you will be happy at this and some might be disappointed, but who knows. In any case, that's how it is. And I'm not planning to resign a second time." I get that not everyone is perfectly well rounded but how do you fail at messaging this poorly? "...some might be disappointed, but who knows. In any case, that's how it is." Just a giant middle finger. I'm sure plenty of Stallman-types will say everyone is not being generous enough or that cancel culture is going too far, but your job on the board of a foundation is implicitly a social one and if you can't not piss off 90% of the people around you then you are still bad at your job and unfit for it.

gettodachoppa 4y ago

Richard Stallman is a victim of the NGO/Media Industrial Complex. His aloofness makes it easier for him to be a target, but let's be honest, if those people want someone taken down, it will happen. People need to be a little less gullible when they see a news campaign trying to take out yet another anti-establishment voice. In a world where propaganda and manipulation have never been so powerful and coordinated, just because a bunch of voices start yelling smoke, doesn't mean there's fire. Or doesn't mean that the fire is anything more than a lit match not deserving your attention. The selective guidance of your attention and outrage always end up doing one thing: supporting the goals of the 1% at the expense of the 99%. Also people need to show more tolerance for someone having the occasional wrongthink (especially since he says he was convinced and changed his mind about adult/child sex years ago). Stallman is human, same as you. Unless you're an NPC, you almost certainly have one or two beliefs that would get you targeted and canceled if people found out about it. If you say you don't, if all your beliefs happen to line up with the Twitterati on every issue, then perhaps you should engage in some self-reflection. (EDIT: removed some unnecessary language)

throway348576 4y ago

The thing is that some of what is brought in his defense contains inaccuracies. Example "Trans Women Do Not Harass Anyone". There are numerous such cases, be it activists indulging in such methods for political purposes or plain old creeps. I know the subject is touchy. I am not saying it is the norm. I am saying such things have happened multiple times. I know people are reluctant to admit such facts as they feel it paints a target on a community. However, I do not believe that it is ever just to discard instances of malevolence, regardless of the perpetrator's identity. And the actions of individuals are their responsibility, not that of their identity group. I know that for many this humanist outlook has been superseded by a collectivist one, where society is merely a collection of overlapping and competing identity-based factions.

lisasays 4y ago

Unfortunately the various hoof-in-mouth statements (about child-adult sex, the Esptein-Minsky remarks) aren't the main reason people are seeking to "cancel" RMS. Rather, it's that he apparently had something of habit of hitting on students, and otherwise "creating a negative environment" for women at MIT. Oh, and for the mattress. At least, that's what people have said (according to sources very easily findable). In the words of one of the persons affected: I recall being told early in my freshman year “If RMS hits on you, just say ‘I’m a vi user’ even if it’s not true.” — Bachelor’s in Computer Science, ’04

seba_dos1 4y ago
Putting aside any other stuff that gets said about him, I find it pretty baffling how an obvious joke made at Stallman's expense (that many of us geeks have heard directed towards us, usually as a lighthearted self-deprecating inner circle humor) gets repeated as an example that's somehow supposed to characterize his misconduct.
- lisasays 4y ago
  The point is that these women had an apparently justified need to be concerned about unwanted sexual advances a certain senior staff member. And to be prepared to fend them off if necessary. It wasn't about dorky geek humor, or making fun of RMS per se.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    I get it that this is how people are reading it, but "tell him you're a vim user" strongly suggests intention of humor.
    - lisasays 4y ago
      Disagree. While it contained a dose of humor -- the primary message clearly was not humor, but the serious need to warn others about the need to be wary of this guy. As buttressed by the data points in the sibling comment to mine.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

Why is this flagged?

anuraaga 4y ago

I don't particularly have any opinion on the person, but do think that a biography written by a journalist known for diving deep, or such, would be far more impactful than a curated list from fans.