8 ms·

Women to Facebook: Stop banning our breast-feeding pics

38 points by FluidDjango 15y ago

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
darxius 15y ago
As a man, I can't say I fully understand this. However, I do respect the feeling of wanting breastfeeding pictures up on their facebook pages. It's a beautiful thing, and I don't see the "porn" or "obscenity" involved. I also support the freedom to protest (breastfeeding in front of facebook offices). However, I have to admit I kind of "face palmed" when I heard that that was their plan of action. Whatever, their right. And I won't be there to take it away from them. One last thought. In no way does facebook "have" to let women show pictures of them breasfeeding. I feel some people are quick to jump the gun and pull the "freedom of speech" card on websites like this. By signing up with facebook, you are joining a club and swearing that you'll follow the rules of that club. If the club decides to ban something, its their right. Just like stores can refuse to serve customers. Interesting read, thanks.
- skylan_q 15y ago
  - It's a beautiful thing, and I don't see the "porn"... If some people are using this as the case against these pictures, that's just plain stupid. Porn has more to do with sex and lust. Breastfeeding isn't pedophilia.
  - darxius 15y ago
    I'm not sure if that's exactly the angle Facebook et al. are taking but I wouldn't be surprised if they pull that. Frankly, if you're "facebook friends" with any underage kids and you think it's irresponsible for them to see picture of you breastfeeding, either don't put them up or un-friend them.
    - skylan_q 15y ago
      Really, I'm wondering what other angle it would be. It's as insane as blocking pictures of feet because someone has a foot fetish.
- hornd 15y ago
  Totally agree with everything you said here. I think it's important for people to realize that facebook is completely within their rights to take down any pictures they want. There are no civil rights violations occuring when facebook chooses to take down your pictures. Personally, I don't think they should be taking down breast-feeding pictures; however, there is nothing illegal or unethical about them doing so.
  - DarkShikari 15y ago
    I think it's important for people to realize that facebook is completely within their rights Yes, it's within their rights, so it may be legal, but... however, there is nothing illegal or unethical about them doing so. How does this imply that it not being unethical? There are certainly plenty of cases where something is "within your rights" and "legal", but still unethical. If I plagiarize an out-of-copyright author, what I'm doing is unethical, but it's still within my rights, as wrong as it is. Let's not perpetuate this stupid "it's legal, so it's okay" meme: not all things which are "legal" are perfectly ethical, nor are all things which are not "legal" unethical.
    - hornd 15y ago
      Right, it not being unethical is my opinion; I didn't mean to present it as an objective statement. I'm certainly open to listening to opinions that this is ethically "wrong", but as of now I don't believe it is.
- Someone 15y ago
  "If the club decides to ban something, its their right. Just like stores can refuse to serve customers." Not categorically. One could argue that this is sex discrimination. "mothers can come in, as long as they do not behave as mothers do". Replace "mothers" by "gays" there, and you get "don't show, don't tell"
- dustingetz 15y ago
  That raises an interesting question. If a business positions itself as a public service, SHOULD it retain the right to make up its terms?
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Unless it is affiliated with the government, YES. That is all.
- DanBC 15y ago
  > Just like stores can refuse to serve customers. A store that refused to serve a woman because she was breastfeeding would be, in England, in some trouble. Clubs and stores can do a lot of things, but they also have to operate within the law. If the law says they're not allowed to discriminate against breast-feeding women then that's what they have to do. This weirdly ties in to all the "COMPANY will censor in certain countries because of local law"; in this situation companies will not censor in certain countries because of local laws.
tgrass 15y ago
I have several female friends who have been very political about this on facebook for years. But facebook is just one venue for them. They make this point everywhere, in parks, at work, at the coffeehouse. The point is to make breastfeeding natural. And when you realize that it's not (and it doesn't matter whether it's a well-dressed VP or an MFA student, it is clearly socially unacceptable, or at least uncomfortable, to breast feed in public) - when you realize that feeding our children should be the most natural thing in the world, and it isn't, you can appreciate the militancy with which they fight to make it a common occurrence for the rest of us: like showing up in your news feed.
- jchrisa 15y ago
  My wife isn't shy about breast feeding in public. The closest we've ever had to awkwardness was the waiter at a middle eastern place who tried to give her an extra napkin for modesty. But we live on the west coast.
- gergles 15y ago
  Urinating, defecating, masturbation, and sex are all natural too, but I don't want to see you doing any of them in public.
- rsanders 15y ago
  Exactly! Like so many other things that shouldn't be considered wrong, so many people will say that it's okay if you do it "in the privacy of your own home". And like so many of those other cases, it's a natural reaction to attempt to truly legitimize it if you're one of the people being exiled to the privacy of your own home. What's also missing from the discussion is what people expect mothers to do in these situations when they're far from home. The alternative might be just a public restroom or a cleaning supplies closet. That's both disgusting and unsafe.
sambeau 15y ago
This is another step in the road of moving social networking out of the private unregulated space into the public heavily regulated space. In this case I see it as a good direction; when young people in the UK were being given 4 year prison sentences for making jokes about rioting, I saw it is a terrible direction. Either way it will be interesting to see where Facebook et al legally end up. My suspicion will be that it will be more like a Mall and less like a private club.
kalleboo 15y ago
I imagine that Facebook are largely just trying to cover their asses. While we have these mothers who are proud to be breastfeeding, there are just as many other prudish mothers who are ready to sue Facebook for allowing their 13-year old to see gasp a breast. And while Facebook may be fine with breastfeeding mothers, they don't want to support their cause financially with their legal department.
k-mcgrady 15y ago
Breast feeding is a natural thing and should be accepted in public by society. However, the people flagging these pictures are most likely the woman's friends. She should speak to them instead of protesting at Facebook. I would guess her friends don't like pictures of her breasts showing up regularly in their News Feed. If you are using a public computer for instance and the pictures show up it could land you in an embarrassing situation. Personally I think it is a case of over sharing. I have nothing against public breast feeding but I don't need to see dozens of photos of you doing it. If you think it is a mundane activity that should be more socially acceptable don't share it on Facebook, you're sensationalising it. And if it matters to you that they can share any content without risk of it being pulled, start a blog. This is a case for the open web I guess which there has been quite a lot of talk about these last few days. I hope that doesn't come off as a rant/rude but it seems like something blown out of proportion.
- blahedo 15y ago
  > the people flagging these pictures are most likely the woman's friends. Why on earth would you assume that? Edit: oh, duh, I get it. I read "friends" as "friends", not "Facebook friends". Makes more sense now.
  - k-mcgrady 15y ago
    Because unless she has made them public the only people who would see them are her friends.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Who else is likely to see the pictures?
- darxius 15y ago
  I agree with the "start a blog" approach. It scares me to think that social networking is getting closer and closer to: "but my genitals are the most fundamental aspect of my humanity, I should be allowed to post a picture of them on my wall".
jrockway 15y ago
The solution is probably to make "flagging" into "tagging". Instead of pulling a photo down when it's flagged, tag it as "breastfeeding" and make sure to only show the pictures to accounts that are opted in. That way, people aren't unexpectedly presented with something they may dislike. Conversely, if you're not offended by anything, don't add any tag filters. Ultimately this doesn't push society towards being more open, but at least a small group of normal people can interact without being harassed by a bunch of prudes.
Zirro 15y ago
Do we know if Facebook has an automatic system which tries to detect inappropriate images, and if it is part of the issue here? Or are they relying completely on having people flagging images? If the latter is true, aren't the friends of the women to "blame", and should be the ones being told to tolerate the images in question?
tibbon 15y ago
Who takes photos of women breastfeeding? If I see a women doing that, I don't stare, as its what she can do and I have no issue with it, but I also certainly don't pull out my DSLR, take a photo, upload to Facebook and tag them. I'm just scratching my head, why women want photos of themselves breastfeeding on Facebook. Do their friends really want to see it? Yes, its natural and ok in public, but I'm just having a hard time imagining why someone wants photos of that up there? It must (or probably is) women's friends flagging the photos to begin with. I can't imagine Facebook employees manually look at every photo uploaded.
- blahedo 15y ago
  > Who takes photos of women breastfeeding? The same people who take photos of women doing anything else with their children. If you don't start from the (very loaded) assumption that breastfeeding is shameful, you're not likely to treat photos of breastfeeding all that differently from any other photo of a mother holding her infant.
  - tibbon 15y ago
    I don't think its shameful. I don't think any nudity is shameful. Yet, I when I'm in situations with any kind of nudity, my instinct isn't to grab my camera and post to Facebook.
    - rsanders 15y ago
      Bikini pictures are way, way more nude (and prurient) than any breastfeeding picture I've seen, yet that's okay. As long as the subject is attractive, apparently. Sometimes it really does seem like the alleged cabal of male chauvinists presumed in feminist literature is setting the unconscious standards for our culture. "I can't fap to this - there's a baby on it! That's obscene!"
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  It could always be one of those rebellious things, where they know somebody is going to have a problem with it so they go out of their way to do it.
gerggerg 15y ago
Mmm, I think this really highlights the issue that facebook is not a public space. It's private. You can campaign all you want but this isn't womens lib. This is a private business that has their own rules. You want real freedom of expression? Facebook doesn't care. They just want their earnings to be as high as possible. I'm by no means saying that facebook is doing anything close to the right thing. Exactly opposite. But I think theres a gross misconception among the general public that people somehow have any rights whatsoever on facebook.
romnempire 15y ago
...that's a hardly useful protest idea. the obvious protest would be to switch social networks. if you can get a good number of 'locked-in' un-tech savvy users to jump ship, facebook will get worried.

38 points by FluidDjango 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

As a man, I can't say I fully understand this. However, I do respect the feeling of wanting breastfeeding pictures up on their facebook pages. It's a beautiful thing, and I don't see the "porn" or "obscenity" involved. I also support the freedom to protest (breastfeeding in front of facebook offices). However, I have to admit I kind of "face palmed" when I heard that that was their plan of action. Whatever, their right. And I won't be there to take it away from them. One last thought. In no way does facebook "have" to let women show pictures of them breasfeeding. I feel some people are quick to jump the gun and pull the "freedom of speech" card on websites like this. By signing up with facebook, you are joining a club and swearing that you'll follow the rules of that club. If the club decides to ban something, its their right. Just like stores can refuse to serve customers. Interesting read, thanks.

skylan_q 15y ago
- It's a beautiful thing, and I don't see the "porn"... If some people are using this as the case against these pictures, that's just plain stupid. Porn has more to do with sex and lust. Breastfeeding isn't pedophilia.
- darxius 15y ago
  I'm not sure if that's exactly the angle Facebook et al. are taking but I wouldn't be surprised if they pull that. Frankly, if you're "facebook friends" with any underage kids and you think it's irresponsible for them to see picture of you breastfeeding, either don't put them up or un-friend them.
  - skylan_q 15y ago
    Really, I'm wondering what other angle it would be. It's as insane as blocking pictures of feet because someone has a foot fetish.
hornd 15y ago
Totally agree with everything you said here. I think it's important for people to realize that facebook is completely within their rights to take down any pictures they want. There are no civil rights violations occuring when facebook chooses to take down your pictures. Personally, I don't think they should be taking down breast-feeding pictures; however, there is nothing illegal or unethical about them doing so.
- DarkShikari 15y ago
  I think it's important for people to realize that facebook is completely within their rights Yes, it's within their rights, so it may be legal, but... however, there is nothing illegal or unethical about them doing so. How does this imply that it not being unethical? There are certainly plenty of cases where something is "within your rights" and "legal", but still unethical. If I plagiarize an out-of-copyright author, what I'm doing is unethical, but it's still within my rights, as wrong as it is. Let's not perpetuate this stupid "it's legal, so it's okay" meme: not all things which are "legal" are perfectly ethical, nor are all things which are not "legal" unethical.
  - hornd 15y ago
    Right, it not being unethical is my opinion; I didn't mean to present it as an objective statement. I'm certainly open to listening to opinions that this is ethically "wrong", but as of now I don't believe it is.
Someone 15y ago
"If the club decides to ban something, its their right. Just like stores can refuse to serve customers." Not categorically. One could argue that this is sex discrimination. "mothers can come in, as long as they do not behave as mothers do". Replace "mothers" by "gays" there, and you get "don't show, don't tell"
dustingetz 15y ago
That raises an interesting question. If a business positions itself as a public service, SHOULD it retain the right to make up its terms?
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Unless it is affiliated with the government, YES. That is all.
DanBC 15y ago
> Just like stores can refuse to serve customers. A store that refused to serve a woman because she was breastfeeding would be, in England, in some trouble. Clubs and stores can do a lot of things, but they also have to operate within the law. If the law says they're not allowed to discriminate against breast-feeding women then that's what they have to do. This weirdly ties in to all the "COMPANY will censor in certain countries because of local law"; in this situation companies will not censor in certain countries because of local laws.

tgrass 15y ago

I have several female friends who have been very political about this on facebook for years. But facebook is just one venue for them. They make this point everywhere, in parks, at work, at the coffeehouse. The point is to make breastfeeding natural. And when you realize that it's not (and it doesn't matter whether it's a well-dressed VP or an MFA student, it is clearly socially unacceptable, or at least uncomfortable, to breast feed in public) - when you realize that feeding our children should be the most natural thing in the world, and it isn't, you can appreciate the militancy with which they fight to make it a common occurrence for the rest of us: like showing up in your news feed.

jchrisa 15y ago
My wife isn't shy about breast feeding in public. The closest we've ever had to awkwardness was the waiter at a middle eastern place who tried to give her an extra napkin for modesty. But we live on the west coast.
gergles 15y ago
Urinating, defecating, masturbation, and sex are all natural too, but I don't want to see you doing any of them in public.
rsanders 15y ago
Exactly! Like so many other things that shouldn't be considered wrong, so many people will say that it's okay if you do it "in the privacy of your own home". And like so many of those other cases, it's a natural reaction to attempt to truly legitimize it if you're one of the people being exiled to the privacy of your own home. What's also missing from the discussion is what people expect mothers to do in these situations when they're far from home. The alternative might be just a public restroom or a cleaning supplies closet. That's both disgusting and unsafe.

sambeau 15y ago

This is another step in the road of moving social networking out of the private unregulated space into the public heavily regulated space. In this case I see it as a good direction; when young people in the UK were being given 4 year prison sentences for making jokes about rioting, I saw it is a terrible direction. Either way it will be interesting to see where Facebook et al legally end up. My suspicion will be that it will be more like a Mall and less like a private club.

kalleboo 15y ago

I imagine that Facebook are largely just trying to cover their asses. While we have these mothers who are proud to be breastfeeding, there are just as many other prudish mothers who are ready to sue Facebook for allowing their 13-year old to see gasp a breast. And while Facebook may be fine with breastfeeding mothers, they don't want to support their cause financially with their legal department.

k-mcgrady 15y ago

Breast feeding is a natural thing and should be accepted in public by society. However, the people flagging these pictures are most likely the woman's friends. She should speak to them instead of protesting at Facebook. I would guess her friends don't like pictures of her breasts showing up regularly in their News Feed. If you are using a public computer for instance and the pictures show up it could land you in an embarrassing situation. Personally I think it is a case of over sharing. I have nothing against public breast feeding but I don't need to see dozens of photos of you doing it. If you think it is a mundane activity that should be more socially acceptable don't share it on Facebook, you're sensationalising it. And if it matters to you that they can share any content without risk of it being pulled, start a blog. This is a case for the open web I guess which there has been quite a lot of talk about these last few days. I hope that doesn't come off as a rant/rude but it seems like something blown out of proportion.

blahedo 15y ago
> the people flagging these pictures are most likely the woman's friends. Why on earth would you assume that? Edit: oh, duh, I get it. I read "friends" as "friends", not "Facebook friends". Makes more sense now.
- k-mcgrady 15y ago
  Because unless she has made them public the only people who would see them are her friends.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Who else is likely to see the pictures?
darxius 15y ago
I agree with the "start a blog" approach. It scares me to think that social networking is getting closer and closer to: "but my genitals are the most fundamental aspect of my humanity, I should be allowed to post a picture of them on my wall".

jrockway 15y ago

The solution is probably to make "flagging" into "tagging". Instead of pulling a photo down when it's flagged, tag it as "breastfeeding" and make sure to only show the pictures to accounts that are opted in. That way, people aren't unexpectedly presented with something they may dislike. Conversely, if you're not offended by anything, don't add any tag filters. Ultimately this doesn't push society towards being more open, but at least a small group of normal people can interact without being harassed by a bunch of prudes.

Zirro 15y ago

Do we know if Facebook has an automatic system which tries to detect inappropriate images, and if it is part of the issue here? Or are they relying completely on having people flagging images? If the latter is true, aren't the friends of the women to "blame", and should be the ones being told to tolerate the images in question?

tibbon 15y ago

Who takes photos of women breastfeeding? If I see a women doing that, I don't stare, as its what she can do and I have no issue with it, but I also certainly don't pull out my DSLR, take a photo, upload to Facebook and tag them. I'm just scratching my head, why women want photos of themselves breastfeeding on Facebook. Do their friends really want to see it? Yes, its natural and ok in public, but I'm just having a hard time imagining why someone wants photos of that up there? It must (or probably is) women's friends flagging the photos to begin with. I can't imagine Facebook employees manually look at every photo uploaded.

blahedo 15y ago
> Who takes photos of women breastfeeding? The same people who take photos of women doing anything else with their children. If you don't start from the (very loaded) assumption that breastfeeding is shameful, you're not likely to treat photos of breastfeeding all that differently from any other photo of a mother holding her infant.
- tibbon 15y ago
  I don't think its shameful. I don't think any nudity is shameful. Yet, I when I'm in situations with any kind of nudity, my instinct isn't to grab my camera and post to Facebook.
  - rsanders 15y ago
    Bikini pictures are way, way more nude (and prurient) than any breastfeeding picture I've seen, yet that's okay. As long as the subject is attractive, apparently. Sometimes it really does seem like the alleged cabal of male chauvinists presumed in feminist literature is setting the unconscious standards for our culture. "I can't fap to this - there's a baby on it! That's obscene!"
sliverstorm 15y ago
It could always be one of those rebellious things, where they know somebody is going to have a problem with it so they go out of their way to do it.

gerggerg 15y ago

Mmm, I think this really highlights the issue that facebook is not a public space. It's private. You can campaign all you want but this isn't womens lib. This is a private business that has their own rules. You want real freedom of expression? Facebook doesn't care. They just want their earnings to be as high as possible. I'm by no means saying that facebook is doing anything close to the right thing. Exactly opposite. But I think theres a gross misconception among the general public that people somehow have any rights whatsoever on facebook.

romnempire 15y ago

...that's a hardly useful protest idea. the obvious protest would be to switch social networks. if you can get a good number of 'locked-in' un-tech savvy users to jump ship, facebook will get worried.