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I don't think the FSF is healthy. The evidence can be had right here. About the only thing you hear about the FSF these days is controversy about Stallman and

I don't think the FSF is healthy. The evidence can be had right here. About the only thing you hear about the FSF these days is controversy about Stallman and the peripheral issues about that. The FSF should be huge, and have a very prominent impact on the relevant parts of the industry, like say HN, various subreddits and slashdot. Instead it barely shows up anywhere. If the FSF isn't prominent in its home turf, then things are even more dire anywhere outside it. A movement that wants to fight for user freedom has to somehow reach those users. Problem is, these days they barely know that it exists, and what they do hear about is all unflattering (eg, Stallman). The FSF has a very tough mission to accomplish. Gathering a few like-minded people at a Linux conference is certainly a good thing, but comes very far from wielding the political influence needed to actually get things done. Worse, even on its own home turf it's losing relevance. The FSF should be aggressively keeping up with modern developments and reacting to them, and finding ways to spread its message. But it seems woefully out of date in that respect.

throwaway22032 4y ago
Hacker News as a whole has essentially never been pro free software or freedom. It's a forum for the discussion of profitable endeavour first and foremost. Mac discussion is as common as Linux. There's a pervasive bias against cryptocurrency, not only the scams but the basic principle of freedom from regulation. "Intellectual property" isn't a joke here, it's generally respected. I could go on, but my main point is that this is predominantly a capitalist forum, not an anarchist one. Principles take a back seat to pragmatism here, the FSF is the opposite of that.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  Point taken, but still it's adjacent enough that I think something or other should percolate here. And there should be some measure of shared interest all the same. Eg, the Linux kernel is under the GPL and I don't see anybody really complaining about that. Pragmatism tells me that even if the philosophy isn't to your liking, the code works and you can often make use of it anyway.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    Sure, Linux and BSD tools are used by people all of the time here, in the same way that like, a meat eater eats broccoli, but that doesn't make them vegetarian. It just doesn't stop where it would need to for people to be aligned with the FSF. People here, in the majority, whack on "ALLOW_UNFREE_PACKAGES" and just get on with it. Or install unfree OSes, or use unfree hardware. It's just not a focus at all.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  "pervasive bias"? Prior to the bubble popping, crypto was hot on HN, and people aggressively attacked anybody with anything negative to say about crypto as so many people were either HODLing or running something within the space.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    You are describing exactly the same phenomenon as I. On here, it's all about the money, the exchanges, Gox, FTX, companies that scam, badcoins that scam, whatever the latest "crash" is, and not about the freedom to transact, which does not fluctuate with a chart line or the successes of a corporation.
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    I never remember crypto being hot on HN. People talked about it, sure, but there was as many people calling it a scam as there has been folks pumping it up. AI is treated better here than crypto ever was.
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      I actually stopped visiting HN for a time because of the hyping of crypto. There's a good chance that comments or posts got deleted over time, but I see most things as they happen because I'm terminally online.
hammyhavoc 4y ago
A lot of what's in this comment could equally be applied to Mozilla too.
stcroixx 4y ago
It's at odds with prevailing modern attitudes. The majority of talented devs of the millennial generation are excited to work for FAANG and don't have the innate distrust/hate of big corporations the previous generations of devs did, including all the the FSF old timers.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  Yes, this is pretty much it. I'm not sure what happened. Maybe it was the fact that technology became mainstream and integrated into our lives so tightly. Stallman is famous for having a very specific attitude to the way he interacts with the Internet. Back in the day it seemed difficult and quirky. But now? The idea of a 20 year old not having a smartphone, not using any social media, not registering a real name account anywhere, never using a parking app, not using a card (including for the metro), not walking by facial recognition surveillance cameras, never getting on a plane to avoid being subject to invasive searches, there are _thousands_ of other examples - this is now the equivalent of living in a log cabin. I don't think it would actually be possible to live like this, even if you had millions of dollars, unless you genuinely lived in the forest. I don't think most people who grew up post 2000ish are even able to understand what life used to be like. You used to be able to go around and live your daily life generally being anonymous and in control of your own things and that was just how it was. It wasn't an effort. I love the FSF but sometimes it does feel as if they're championing a return to the pre-Internet days, simply because the level of reconfiguration of the world we'd require now is so so massive.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- taylodl 4y ago
  Now that those millennials are getting laid-off en masse we'll see if their attitude toward FAANG begins to change.
vinceguidry 4y ago
FSF is doing just fine. Interest goes up every year. Donations go up every year. The crowds at the conferences they host go up every year. More stuff is added to GNU every year. They keep on innovating in the realm of software licensing. More stuff than ever is released under AGPL3. You don't see it, because you, gentle soul, don't care about the FSF. You care about what you care about, and that means you only see ancillary stuff that other people are sharing. And that stuff is hate because a lot of people hate the FSF, just as more people come to love the FSF every year. It's getting more attention and not less. It's gaining relevance. RMS has stated that the FSF has been successful beyond his wildest dreams.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  > Interest goes up every year. Donations go up every year. The crowds at the conferences they host go up every year. More stuff is added to GNU every year. They keep on innovating in the realm of software licensing. More stuff than ever is released under AGPL3. That is very good to hear, but if that's the case then it's still doing far less well than I think it should be. > You don't see it, because you, gentle soul, don't care about the FSF. You care about what you care about, and that means you only see ancillary stuff that other people are sharing. I shouldn't need to care about the FSF specifically to hear something about it. I don't need to hang out in Blender-specific places to hear about Blender, because the project runs well, creates stuff people like, and makes good progress and people talk about it. The FSF doesn't seem to be doing that well in this department, and that's concerning because an organization that wants to push the world needs to have its message heard by the world at large, not just the fan club. > And that stuff is hate because a lot of people hate the FSF, just as more people come to love the FSF every year. It's getting more attention and not less. It's gaining relevance. RMS has stated that the FSF has been successful beyond his wildest dreams. Yeah, you're barking up the wrong tree. I want the FSF to be relevant. I agree with a lot of Stallman's ideas. I just don't think it's being nearly effective enough, and needs to do much better.
ticviking 4y ago
I think that the "hacker spirit" is most embodied over at handmade network. They're less dogmatic about software freedom, but because of the "get your hands dirty" attitude I find they tend to use open source tools more often than not. Their conference is probably the only one I'm excited about this year.

throwaway22032 4y ago

Hacker News as a whole has essentially never been pro free software or freedom. It's a forum for the discussion of profitable endeavour first and foremost. Mac discussion is as common as Linux. There's a pervasive bias against cryptocurrency, not only the scams but the basic principle of freedom from regulation. "Intellectual property" isn't a joke here, it's generally respected. I could go on, but my main point is that this is predominantly a capitalist forum, not an anarchist one. Principles take a back seat to pragmatism here, the FSF is the opposite of that.

dale_glass 4y ago
Point taken, but still it's adjacent enough that I think something or other should percolate here. And there should be some measure of shared interest all the same. Eg, the Linux kernel is under the GPL and I don't see anybody really complaining about that. Pragmatism tells me that even if the philosophy isn't to your liking, the code works and you can often make use of it anyway.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  Sure, Linux and BSD tools are used by people all of the time here, in the same way that like, a meat eater eats broccoli, but that doesn't make them vegetarian. It just doesn't stop where it would need to for people to be aligned with the FSF. People here, in the majority, whack on "ALLOW_UNFREE_PACKAGES" and just get on with it. Or install unfree OSes, or use unfree hardware. It's just not a focus at all.
hammyhavoc 4y ago
"pervasive bias"? Prior to the bubble popping, crypto was hot on HN, and people aggressively attacked anybody with anything negative to say about crypto as so many people were either HODLing or running something within the space.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  You are describing exactly the same phenomenon as I. On here, it's all about the money, the exchanges, Gox, FTX, companies that scam, badcoins that scam, whatever the latest "crash" is, and not about the freedom to transact, which does not fluctuate with a chart line or the successes of a corporation.
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  I never remember crypto being hot on HN. People talked about it, sure, but there was as many people calling it a scam as there has been folks pumping it up. AI is treated better here than crypto ever was.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    I actually stopped visiting HN for a time because of the hyping of crypto. There's a good chance that comments or posts got deleted over time, but I see most things as they happen because I'm terminally online.

hammyhavoc 4y ago

A lot of what's in this comment could equally be applied to Mozilla too.

stcroixx 4y ago

It's at odds with prevailing modern attitudes. The majority of talented devs of the millennial generation are excited to work for FAANG and don't have the innate distrust/hate of big corporations the previous generations of devs did, including all the the FSF old timers.

throwaway22032 4y ago
Yes, this is pretty much it. I'm not sure what happened. Maybe it was the fact that technology became mainstream and integrated into our lives so tightly. Stallman is famous for having a very specific attitude to the way he interacts with the Internet. Back in the day it seemed difficult and quirky. But now? The idea of a 20 year old not having a smartphone, not using any social media, not registering a real name account anywhere, never using a parking app, not using a card (including for the metro), not walking by facial recognition surveillance cameras, never getting on a plane to avoid being subject to invasive searches, there are _thousands_ of other examples - this is now the equivalent of living in a log cabin. I don't think it would actually be possible to live like this, even if you had millions of dollars, unless you genuinely lived in the forest. I don't think most people who grew up post 2000ish are even able to understand what life used to be like. You used to be able to go around and live your daily life generally being anonymous and in control of your own things and that was just how it was. It wasn't an effort. I love the FSF but sometimes it does feel as if they're championing a return to the pre-Internet days, simply because the level of reconfiguration of the world we'd require now is so so massive.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
taylodl 4y ago
Now that those millennials are getting laid-off en masse we'll see if their attitude toward FAANG begins to change.

vinceguidry 4y ago

FSF is doing just fine. Interest goes up every year. Donations go up every year. The crowds at the conferences they host go up every year. More stuff is added to GNU every year. They keep on innovating in the realm of software licensing. More stuff than ever is released under AGPL3. You don't see it, because you, gentle soul, don't care about the FSF. You care about what you care about, and that means you only see ancillary stuff that other people are sharing. And that stuff is hate because a lot of people hate the FSF, just as more people come to love the FSF every year. It's getting more attention and not less. It's gaining relevance. RMS has stated that the FSF has been successful beyond his wildest dreams.

dale_glass 4y ago
> Interest goes up every year. Donations go up every year. The crowds at the conferences they host go up every year. More stuff is added to GNU every year. They keep on innovating in the realm of software licensing. More stuff than ever is released under AGPL3. That is very good to hear, but if that's the case then it's still doing far less well than I think it should be. > You don't see it, because you, gentle soul, don't care about the FSF. You care about what you care about, and that means you only see ancillary stuff that other people are sharing. I shouldn't need to care about the FSF specifically to hear something about it. I don't need to hang out in Blender-specific places to hear about Blender, because the project runs well, creates stuff people like, and makes good progress and people talk about it. The FSF doesn't seem to be doing that well in this department, and that's concerning because an organization that wants to push the world needs to have its message heard by the world at large, not just the fan club. > And that stuff is hate because a lot of people hate the FSF, just as more people come to love the FSF every year. It's getting more attention and not less. It's gaining relevance. RMS has stated that the FSF has been successful beyond his wildest dreams. Yeah, you're barking up the wrong tree. I want the FSF to be relevant. I agree with a lot of Stallman's ideas. I just don't think it's being nearly effective enough, and needs to do much better.

ticviking 4y ago

I think that the "hacker spirit" is most embodied over at handmade network. They're less dogmatic about software freedom, but because of the "get your hands dirty" attitude I find they tend to use open source tools more often than not. Their conference is probably the only one I'm excited about this year.