4 ms·

> The sophistication and gadgets in modern cars are great until something goes wrong I'd go further than cars and say, "in most things". Smart-anything, washin

> The sophistication and gadgets in modern cars are great until something goes wrong I'd go further than cars and say, "in most things". Smart-anything, washing machines, printers, sewing machines, thermostats, appliances in general... My mother in-law has two sewing machines. One of them is one of the first electronic sewing machines (from the 70s) and one is much older. Guess which one still works like a charm? I'm not arguing against electronics, here-- many of these things are no doubt improved by electronics to such a degree that the tradeoff is worth it, but it's good to at least acknowledge that there is a tradeoff. It's also good to try to minimize the impact of electronic failure. Smart things would ideally just revert back to being functional dumb things (rather than bricks) if their electronics fail.

ilyt 4y ago
If something like that needs to be smart the smart part should basically be extra interface. Old printers did it right - separate extra box for all the connectivity working as print server. That breaks ? just connect it directly. But hey, feeding everything from single microcontroller is $2 cheaper...
- miah_ 4y ago
  I went to a "tech school" to learn computers while in High School in the 90's. The tech school also had classes for 'the trades', it was set up to prepare Michigan kids for careers (Careerline Tech IIRC). Anyway. A big part of that class was learning to clean, repair, and manage printers. Again, it was the 90's, and we were high school kids. We came out quite capable with many computer skills but the printer stuff really stuck with me. I've done technical support throughout the years and have setup hundreds of printers. The printers of today are awful landfill fodder compared to the Okidata's of the 90's. Pure simplicity and speed vs FULL COMPUTERS, with scanning, faxing, and every other imaginable feature crammed in with zero hope of doing anything other than replacing the toner.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > The printers of today are awful landfill fodder compared to the Okidata's of the 90's. Pure simplicity and speed vs FULL COMPUTERS, with scanning, faxing, and every other imaginable feature crammed in with zero hope of doing anything other than replacing the toner. The first Laserwriter in 1985 had more processing power than the Macintosh it was sold to accompany. Printers have been full computers for a long time now. As we expect them to do more and more, the computers in them get more and more complex.
    - hinkley 4y ago
      People used to buy HP Laserjet 4 printers at auction because they were peak stability. From the look of things the 4 introduced the direct predecessor to the wire protocol printers use today (PCL 5e vs PCL 6 variants) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_Command_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_Command_Language
      - ilyt 4y ago
        Our helpdesk offered us to take our LJ2100 and get us something newer. Many insults were thrown. He didn't try again
        hinkley 4y ago
        There were a ton of companies selling refurbished or knockoff toner cartridges for those things too. As good as the LJ was, the fact that they had easy access to cheaper supplies just accelerated the process of selection.
    - alpaca128 4y ago
      > As we expect them to do more and more Who does? Who asked for updates blocking third-party ink, 1GB "drivers", full-color "test prints" each time you switch it on, ...? Printing reliably doesn't sound too demanding, manufacturers reached that point long ago, and since then I haven't seen all that much groundbreaking innovation. Sure, things like wifi were added but that doesn't require cutting-edge technology - consumer devices could handle that 20 years ago, and more reliably than the printers I've used. I also haven't heard of anyone being excited about NFC in printers, and from experience I can say it's not nearly intuitive or frictionless enough to warrant the integration.
briffle 4y ago
My grandma had an original "Montgomery Wards" microwave.. they saved up for months to buy it when it came out. Complete with a rotary dial timer. Never serviced, always cooked perfectly. She had to get rid of it around 2006 or so, when she got a pacemaker.. They didn't shield them as well back then...
outworlder 4y ago
> My mother in-law has two sewing machines. One of them is one of the first electronic sewing machines (from the 70s) and one is much older. Guess which one still works like a charm? There's a bit of survivorship bias and N=1 here. I'm old enough to remember machines full of relays and discrete components that failed pretty often and required a lot of troubleshooting with schematics on hand. Modern appliances – if built out of decent components – have a much better shot at surviving long term. Less discrete components that can fail, more debugging capabilities, logic that's implemented in a rock solid processor rather than an unreliable mess of digital gates (or worse, analog logic). There's obviously a point where there are diminishing returns, and probably another one where more complexity actually decreases reliability. > Smart things would ideally just revert back to being functional dumb things (rather than bricks) if their electronics fail. If possible, yes. That's only really an option for simple devices.

ilyt 4y ago

If something like that needs to be smart the smart part should basically be extra interface. Old printers did it right - separate extra box for all the connectivity working as print server. That breaks ? just connect it directly. But hey, feeding everything from single microcontroller is $2 cheaper...

miah_ 4y ago
I went to a "tech school" to learn computers while in High School in the 90's. The tech school also had classes for 'the trades', it was set up to prepare Michigan kids for careers (Careerline Tech IIRC). Anyway. A big part of that class was learning to clean, repair, and manage printers. Again, it was the 90's, and we were high school kids. We came out quite capable with many computer skills but the printer stuff really stuck with me. I've done technical support throughout the years and have setup hundreds of printers. The printers of today are awful landfill fodder compared to the Okidata's of the 90's. Pure simplicity and speed vs FULL COMPUTERS, with scanning, faxing, and every other imaginable feature crammed in with zero hope of doing anything other than replacing the toner.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > The printers of today are awful landfill fodder compared to the Okidata's of the 90's. Pure simplicity and speed vs FULL COMPUTERS, with scanning, faxing, and every other imaginable feature crammed in with zero hope of doing anything other than replacing the toner. The first Laserwriter in 1985 had more processing power than the Macintosh it was sold to accompany. Printers have been full computers for a long time now. As we expect them to do more and more, the computers in them get more and more complex.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    People used to buy HP Laserjet 4 printers at auction because they were peak stability. From the look of things the 4 introduced the direct predecessor to the wire protocol printers use today (PCL 5e vs PCL 6 variants) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_Command_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_Command_Language
    - ilyt 4y ago
      Our helpdesk offered us to take our LJ2100 and get us something newer. Many insults were thrown. He didn't try again
      - hinkley 4y ago
        There were a ton of companies selling refurbished or knockoff toner cartridges for those things too. As good as the LJ was, the fact that they had easy access to cheaper supplies just accelerated the process of selection.
  - alpaca128 4y ago
    > As we expect them to do more and more Who does? Who asked for updates blocking third-party ink, 1GB "drivers", full-color "test prints" each time you switch it on, ...? Printing reliably doesn't sound too demanding, manufacturers reached that point long ago, and since then I haven't seen all that much groundbreaking innovation. Sure, things like wifi were added but that doesn't require cutting-edge technology - consumer devices could handle that 20 years ago, and more reliably than the printers I've used. I also haven't heard of anyone being excited about NFC in printers, and from experience I can say it's not nearly intuitive or frictionless enough to warrant the integration.

briffle 4y ago

My grandma had an original "Montgomery Wards" microwave.. they saved up for months to buy it when it came out. Complete with a rotary dial timer. Never serviced, always cooked perfectly. She had to get rid of it around 2006 or so, when she got a pacemaker.. They didn't shield them as well back then...

outworlder 4y ago

> My mother in-law has two sewing machines. One of them is one of the first electronic sewing machines (from the 70s) and one is much older. Guess which one still works like a charm? There's a bit of survivorship bias and N=1 here. I'm old enough to remember machines full of relays and discrete components that failed pretty often and required a lot of troubleshooting with schematics on hand. Modern appliances – if built out of decent components – have a much better shot at surviving long term. Less discrete components that can fail, more debugging capabilities, logic that's implemented in a rock solid processor rather than an unreliable mess of digital gates (or worse, analog logic). There's obviously a point where there are diminishing returns, and probably another one where more complexity actually decreases reliability. > Smart things would ideally just revert back to being functional dumb things (rather than bricks) if their electronics fail. If possible, yes. That's only really an option for simple devices.