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> The road to recovery for FTX began when the company enlisted the help of a team of forensic accountants, legal experts, and blockchain analysts to track down

> The road to recovery for FTX began when the company enlisted the help of a team of forensic accountants, legal experts, and blockchain analysts to track down the lost funds. This pretty much encompasses why crypto currencies wont work. Most folks cant afford forensic accountants, legal experts.

calderknight 3y ago
Cryptocurrencies do work. Maybe you can connect what's happened here to some specific shortcoming of cryptocurrencies - but it's not clear to me that anybody would need a forensic accountant just by nature of cryptocurrency.
- remarkEon 3y ago
  I have a bunch of Crypto in a hardware wallet. Properly maintaining your coins is absolutely not something average people can do. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, I'm just trying to point out that doing this right isn't easy. "Cryptocurrencies do work" is true for some definition of "true" that doesn't include normal, largely non-technical people.
  - olalonde 3y ago
    I know I probably have a minority point of view, but I don't see Bitcoin as primarily competing with payment systems (e.g. credit cards). I see it as primarily competing with currency. One could envision a credit card denominated in BTC that offers transaction reversibility and dispute resolution features. Additionally, for those who may be uncertain about their ability to securely manage their own private keys, a BTC-denominated "bank account" could be a viable solution.
    - remarkEon 3y ago
      I'm having trouble following your argument (disclaimer: I understand the philosophical arguments underlying BTC and crypto in general, some technical details of how to manage it, little of the math). You say that you don't see it competing with payment systems but as a currency, but isn't the benefit BTC is supposed to offer the infrastructure itself? How is that not a "payment system", in the abstract sense? For example: >One could envision a credit card denominated in BTC that offers transaction reversibility and dispute resolution features. This is a payment system, right?
      - olalonde 3y ago
        > but isn't the benefit BTC is supposed to offer the infrastructure itself? My point is that the "infrastructure" is nice, but it's not the sole advantage of Bitcoin. The primary benefit, in my opinion, lies in its predictable and unalterable supply mechanism, which prevents any entity from manipulating it. While the on-chain payment system and the relative ease of self-custody are great features (and necessary for the system to work), they are not essential for enjoying the benefits of Bitcoin as a currency with an immutable supply. You can still reap those benefits when using "off chain" payment systems that use BTC balances (e.g. credit cards/PayPal/Cash App/etc.). Also, Bitcoin has an open API, making it easy to create payment systems on top of it (the equivalent for USD would be... obtaining an account at the Federal Reserve? transporting cash?). Hope it makes sense, let me know if anything is still unclear.
        remarkEon 3y ago
        Thanks for the genuine response (I know BTC arguments on HN can get repetitive and dumb). >The primary benefit, in my opinion, lies in its predictable and unalterable supply mechanism, which prevents any entity from manipulating it. I agree, and to add to this point the supply is fixed. No more printing. I don't necessarily disagree with your response, it's just that I find this >...the relative ease of self-custody hard to believe. It's not easy. The Average Joe just buys BTC on Coinbase (or cashapp or whatever) and it sits there. Those are not their Coins (we all know this). Maybe I've missed something in the past couple years that's made things easier, or maybe I'm just a puritan who insists on hardware wallets. Anyway, I'm mostly arguing against myself here because I do think that the fiat system is a problem. But again, even if I make that argument I struggle to see BTC as an actual currency and not as some sort of reserve asset. I don't think there's an example beyond Gold where something has existed as both. And making the argument that BTC is the same as Gold is a very strong argument to make, because without electricity and the internet my BTC is worthless. Suppose for a moment that the US does troll itself into a WWIII scenario with Russia and/or China in the next couple years - a war where Internet infrastructure will obviously be a target. Is BTC still worth anything? Gold will still be worth something, because it has physical uses in war time. But BTC?
    - ravivyas 3y ago
      > competing with currency This required that bitcoin be accessible, but it is not. Well you can call it an exotic currency
olalonde 3y ago
Cash is even harder to track down.
- ravivyas 3y ago
  Depends on how you hoard it. But in most cases that is what banks solve for.
  - olalonde 3y ago
    My point was that it would have likely been harder for them to track down missing cash. We're dealing with a fraud case here, that's why there is a specialized recovery team.

calderknight 3y ago

Cryptocurrencies do work. Maybe you can connect what's happened here to some specific shortcoming of cryptocurrencies - but it's not clear to me that anybody would need a forensic accountant just by nature of cryptocurrency.

remarkEon 3y ago
I have a bunch of Crypto in a hardware wallet. Properly maintaining your coins is absolutely not something average people can do. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, I'm just trying to point out that doing this right isn't easy. "Cryptocurrencies do work" is true for some definition of "true" that doesn't include normal, largely non-technical people.
- olalonde 3y ago
  I know I probably have a minority point of view, but I don't see Bitcoin as primarily competing with payment systems (e.g. credit cards). I see it as primarily competing with currency. One could envision a credit card denominated in BTC that offers transaction reversibility and dispute resolution features. Additionally, for those who may be uncertain about their ability to securely manage their own private keys, a BTC-denominated "bank account" could be a viable solution.
  - remarkEon 3y ago
    I'm having trouble following your argument (disclaimer: I understand the philosophical arguments underlying BTC and crypto in general, some technical details of how to manage it, little of the math). You say that you don't see it competing with payment systems but as a currency, but isn't the benefit BTC is supposed to offer the infrastructure itself? How is that not a "payment system", in the abstract sense? For example: >One could envision a credit card denominated in BTC that offers transaction reversibility and dispute resolution features. This is a payment system, right?
    - olalonde 3y ago
      > but isn't the benefit BTC is supposed to offer the infrastructure itself? My point is that the "infrastructure" is nice, but it's not the sole advantage of Bitcoin. The primary benefit, in my opinion, lies in its predictable and unalterable supply mechanism, which prevents any entity from manipulating it. While the on-chain payment system and the relative ease of self-custody are great features (and necessary for the system to work), they are not essential for enjoying the benefits of Bitcoin as a currency with an immutable supply. You can still reap those benefits when using "off chain" payment systems that use BTC balances (e.g. credit cards/PayPal/Cash App/etc.). Also, Bitcoin has an open API, making it easy to create payment systems on top of it (the equivalent for USD would be... obtaining an account at the Federal Reserve? transporting cash?). Hope it makes sense, let me know if anything is still unclear.
      - remarkEon 3y ago
        Thanks for the genuine response (I know BTC arguments on HN can get repetitive and dumb). >The primary benefit, in my opinion, lies in its predictable and unalterable supply mechanism, which prevents any entity from manipulating it. I agree, and to add to this point the supply is fixed. No more printing. I don't necessarily disagree with your response, it's just that I find this >...the relative ease of self-custody hard to believe. It's not easy. The Average Joe just buys BTC on Coinbase (or cashapp or whatever) and it sits there. Those are not their Coins (we all know this). Maybe I've missed something in the past couple years that's made things easier, or maybe I'm just a puritan who insists on hardware wallets. Anyway, I'm mostly arguing against myself here because I do think that the fiat system is a problem. But again, even if I make that argument I struggle to see BTC as an actual currency and not as some sort of reserve asset. I don't think there's an example beyond Gold where something has existed as both. And making the argument that BTC is the same as Gold is a very strong argument to make, because without electricity and the internet my BTC is worthless. Suppose for a moment that the US does troll itself into a WWIII scenario with Russia and/or China in the next couple years - a war where Internet infrastructure will obviously be a target. Is BTC still worth anything? Gold will still be worth something, because it has physical uses in war time. But BTC?
  - ravivyas 3y ago
    > competing with currency This required that bitcoin be accessible, but it is not. Well you can call it an exotic currency

olalonde 3y ago

Cash is even harder to track down.

ravivyas 3y ago
Depends on how you hoard it. But in most cases that is what banks solve for.
- olalonde 3y ago
  My point was that it would have likely been harder for them to track down missing cash. We're dealing with a fraud case here, that's why there is a specialized recovery team.