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The one area where I don't advocate for GNU/Linux is in graphical user interfaces. The year of the Linux desktop will never come. For whatever reason, the cathe

by readme 3y ago

The one area where I don't advocate for GNU/Linux is in graphical user interfaces. The year of the Linux desktop will never come. For whatever reason, the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar.

indigodaddy 3y ago
I really think that within 20 years a Linux desktop will be the dominant platform/choice.
- airtonix 3y ago
  [dead]
- readme 3y ago
  20 years from now I would wager very few people will still use desktop workstations
crispinb 3y ago
> The year of the Linux desktop will never come Probably true. But largely irrelevant. > the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar. Can is such an open ended claim it's impossible to judge (there's always another tomorrow). But does? Not so sure. I've used the big 3 extensively. I don't buy into the dafter reaches of Linux advocacy ("your great-grandmother could install it & have no problems & it's way easier than ...). But OTOH the annoyances I get from running Fedora as my main machine are at least no greater than I've had with Windows and MacOS. I prefer it because its balance of positives and negatives suit my preferences best; but I don't find any of the 3 main desktop OS's categorically superior. Admittedly that's because they're all pretty dismal. Every unhappy OS is unhappy in its own way. And every desktop OS is unhappy.
rascul 3y ago
The year of the Linux desktop came for me in the early '00s. Since then, I find that there has been some improvements here and there but an overall general decline in usability and quality for desktop systems with GUIs. To each their own. Edit: Had my dates wrong at first, in case you caught it for that minute.
jaimex2 3y ago
KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX. The barrier will always be pre-installed OS. Needing to fiddle in the BIOS before you can install is a bridge too far.
- kitsunesoba 3y ago
  > KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX. For some, I'm sure this true but it's never quite worked for me. It's opinionated, which is fine but that means it isn't going to work for everybody.
  - Narishma 3y ago
    KDE is anything but opinionated. You can pretty much change anything you want in it.
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    Pretty sure you're talking about something else. KDE is famous for being the most configurable desktop within at least 4.24 light years, probably much more.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      It’s configurable yes, but it has plenty of quirks and bits of design that can’t be changed without getting one’s hands dirty and forking. Those are what people will likely find disagreeable, more than anything that can be changed.
  - planede 3y ago
    If KDE is opinionated then what Windows and MacOS are?
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      They’re opinionated too, though I’d say Windows to the least degree with its “anything goes” attitude it’s had since the mid-late 90s.
Robotbeat 3y ago
Maybe true, but interestingly, Linux is about 10% of laptop market share (7.5% ChromeOS/ChromiumOS, 2.5% Linux), already fairly successful. (And ChromeOS can and does run Linux applications now.)
- pjmlp 3y ago
  ChromeOS runs GNU/Linux on a VM running on top of gVisor, in selected Chromebooks, it is hardly a feature that every Chromebook owner can count on.
- readme 3y ago
  I don't consider ChromiumOS to be GNU/Linux. The kernel itself doesn't count -- obviously the kernel has little to do with the user experience. Android is much different than the experience of an X11/Gnome or KDE desktop. The graphics stack is entirely different.
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc. People who aren't software developers that just care about the user's experience.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc. Some 10 years ago, maybe. Hiding scrollbars, making them small, gray on gray - that is not QA and UX.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> For whatever reason, the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar. Er. Given Windows 8-11, the cathedral can also do so much worse. I'm not sure that's meaningful.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  They can, yet the hoards of migrations that keep being announced since Windows XP never come true, regardless how bad Apple, Microsoft and Google might release some of their OSes.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    This is because they are all monopolies. My employer only allows Windows for PCs and iOS for phones. If i buy i smartphone at a resonable price there is only Android. (no i will not pay 500 Euros for a thing that costs 50 Euros).
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      How many games written with the NDK in C/C++/OpenGL ES/Vulkan/OpenSL get ported from Android or ChromeOS into GNU/Linux? Almost none, instead Windows gets kind of emulated via Proton, thus making irrelevant any business reasons to target GNU/Linux directly.
pjmlp 3y ago
Same here, the Year of Desktop Linux VM is the best it can get. With exception of NeXTSTEP, Irix, NeWS, UNIX is only good at headless workloads anyway, even POSIX doesn't cover GUIs.
never_inline 3y ago
Hardware & Application support is what challenges Linux adoption on Desktop (well, Laptop, because people hardly use desktop these days). Major desktop environment UIs are just as fine, if not better. They're just unfamiliar.
- readme 3y ago
  Hardware support imo is pretty good on Linux, if not better than on OS X/Windows. Especially legacy hardware. In themselves, each desktop is OK, the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits (i.e. gtk, qt, etc) so it doesn't look consistent. Windows and Mac do not have this problem. The other problem is that a client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
  - never_inline 3y ago
    > Especially legacy hardware. OTOH, when you buy a new laptop from a budget vendor or with slightly obscure HW, you have to wait 6month - 1year for all drivers to work well. > the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits On windows also, most applications use their custom UI. > client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI. Never a problem in practice. KDE is much faster and lighter than Windows 10.
msla 3y ago
The Cathedral might make a better GUI, but damned if the Cathedral can stick to a single GUI and not gratuitously break workflows.

by readme 3y ago

indigodaddy 3y ago

I really think that within 20 years a Linux desktop will be the dominant platform/choice.

airtonix 3y ago
[dead]
readme 3y ago
20 years from now I would wager very few people will still use desktop workstations

crispinb 3y ago

> The year of the Linux desktop will never come Probably true. But largely irrelevant. > the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar. Can is such an open ended claim it's impossible to judge (there's always another tomorrow). But does? Not so sure. I've used the big 3 extensively. I don't buy into the dafter reaches of Linux advocacy ("your great-grandmother could install it & have no problems & it's way easier than ...). But OTOH the annoyances I get from running Fedora as my main machine are at least no greater than I've had with Windows and MacOS. I prefer it because its balance of positives and negatives suit my preferences best; but I don't find any of the 3 main desktop OS's categorically superior. Admittedly that's because they're all pretty dismal. Every unhappy OS is unhappy in its own way. And every desktop OS is unhappy.

rascul 3y ago

The year of the Linux desktop came for me in the early '00s. Since then, I find that there has been some improvements here and there but an overall general decline in usability and quality for desktop systems with GUIs. To each their own. Edit: Had my dates wrong at first, in case you caught it for that minute.

jaimex2 3y ago

KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX. The barrier will always be pre-installed OS. Needing to fiddle in the BIOS before you can install is a bridge too far.

kitsunesoba 3y ago
> KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX. For some, I'm sure this true but it's never quite worked for me. It's opinionated, which is fine but that means it isn't going to work for everybody.
- Narishma 3y ago
  KDE is anything but opinionated. You can pretty much change anything you want in it.
- Tommstein 3y ago
  Pretty sure you're talking about something else. KDE is famous for being the most configurable desktop within at least 4.24 light years, probably much more.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    It’s configurable yes, but it has plenty of quirks and bits of design that can’t be changed without getting one’s hands dirty and forking. Those are what people will likely find disagreeable, more than anything that can be changed.
- planede 3y ago
  If KDE is opinionated then what Windows and MacOS are?
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    They’re opinionated too, though I’d say Windows to the least degree with its “anything goes” attitude it’s had since the mid-late 90s.

Robotbeat 3y ago

Maybe true, but interestingly, Linux is about 10% of laptop market share (7.5% ChromeOS/ChromiumOS, 2.5% Linux), already fairly successful. (And ChromeOS can and does run Linux applications now.)

pjmlp 3y ago
ChromeOS runs GNU/Linux on a VM running on top of gVisor, in selected Chromebooks, it is hardly a feature that every Chromebook owner can count on.
readme 3y ago
I don't consider ChromiumOS to be GNU/Linux. The kernel itself doesn't count -- obviously the kernel has little to do with the user experience. Android is much different than the experience of an X11/Gnome or KDE desktop. The graphics stack is entirely different.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc. People who aren't software developers that just care about the user's experience.

hulitu 3y ago
> Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc. Some 10 years ago, maybe. Hiding scrollbars, making them small, gray on gray - that is not QA and UX.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

> For whatever reason, the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar. Er. Given Windows 8-11, the cathedral can also do so much worse. I'm not sure that's meaningful.

pjmlp 3y ago
They can, yet the hoards of migrations that keep being announced since Windows XP never come true, regardless how bad Apple, Microsoft and Google might release some of their OSes.
- hulitu 3y ago
  This is because they are all monopolies. My employer only allows Windows for PCs and iOS for phones. If i buy i smartphone at a resonable price there is only Android. (no i will not pay 500 Euros for a thing that costs 50 Euros).
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    How many games written with the NDK in C/C++/OpenGL ES/Vulkan/OpenSL get ported from Android or ChromeOS into GNU/Linux? Almost none, instead Windows gets kind of emulated via Proton, thus making irrelevant any business reasons to target GNU/Linux directly.

pjmlp 3y ago

Same here, the Year of Desktop Linux VM is the best it can get. With exception of NeXTSTEP, Irix, NeWS, UNIX is only good at headless workloads anyway, even POSIX doesn't cover GUIs.

never_inline 3y ago

Hardware & Application support is what challenges Linux adoption on Desktop (well, Laptop, because people hardly use desktop these days). Major desktop environment UIs are just as fine, if not better. They're just unfamiliar.

readme 3y ago
Hardware support imo is pretty good on Linux, if not better than on OS X/Windows. Especially legacy hardware. In themselves, each desktop is OK, the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits (i.e. gtk, qt, etc) so it doesn't look consistent. Windows and Mac do not have this problem. The other problem is that a client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
- never_inline 3y ago
  > Especially legacy hardware. OTOH, when you buy a new laptop from a budget vendor or with slightly obscure HW, you have to wait 6month - 1year for all drivers to work well. > the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits On windows also, most applications use their custom UI. > client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI. Never a problem in practice. KDE is much faster and lighter than Windows 10.

msla 3y ago

The Cathedral might make a better GUI, but damned if the Cathedral can stick to a single GUI and not gratuitously break workflows.