7 ms·

The sociology of drinking

219 points by overgard 15y ago

overgard 15y ago
I thought HN might be interested in this based on the post yesterday challenging people to avoid getting drunk/live in the moment. I noticed there was a lot of misunderstanding as to how alcohol works on people/groups, so this might be informative to some.
- sc68cal 15y ago
  I personally did not care for the article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363) because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked. If you don't like to drink, don't. If you like to drink, do so responsibly and be considerate to others. Nobody has the right to make value judgements about other people's lifestyles, on this site.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    I disagreed with that entire article, but the fact that it wasn't tech-related doesn't mean it wasn't suitable for HN - neither, for that matter, does the fact that you or I disagreed with it.
  - mw63214 15y ago
    " because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked." I find articles like this interesting, regardless of the fact that they may be far from purely technical. I happen to think that technology is a means, not an end. Finding different perspectives on problems or circumstances that I may not have been exposed to allows me to better weigh pro's and con's of an issue and think of how technology could help solve/change/improve things.
- philwelch 15y ago
  Thanks. It's good to have a take on this subject that really does gratify the intellectual curiosity.
RugerRedhawk 15y ago
Well, duh. It's been quite obvious to me that drunkenness was always an excuse for acting improperly.
Anon84 15y ago
There is something about the cultural dimension of social problems that eludes us. When confronted with the rowdy youth in the bar, we are happy to raise his drinking age, to tax his beer, to punish him if he drives under the influence, and to push him into treatment if his habit becomes an addiction. But we are reluctant to provide him with a positive and constructive example of how to drink. The consequences of that failure are considerable, because, in the end, culture is a more powerful tool in dealing with drinking than medicine, economics, or the law.
- iso8859-1 15y ago
  Well, the anti-drinking populace are telling him not to drink. And it's good advice, considering that if he's rowdy he has probably exceeded the government recommended maximum consumption level. He can never satisfy everybody anyway, so what is the problem here? I don't think the youth have problems with people not liking them drinking.
  - mekoka 15y ago
    If I understood this article as I think I did, your line of reasoning is exactly what the author highlights as the center of a cultural misunderstandings regarding the effects of alcohol. The kid's rowdiness isn't so much a consequence of his drinking than it is a social conditioning that taught him it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood. Under different circumstances (in another culture), he would drink exactly the same, but would act completely differently. I think the main point he's trying to convey is that, rather than focusing on attacking alcohol on all fronts, some effort could be put forth in culturally redefining our belief of what people are supposed to act like when they drink (see the passage on first generation Italian immigrants).
    - mafro 15y ago
      "it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood" And here you've nailed the point that the OP of the first alcohol related post on HN completely missed. His repeated assertion of "drinking to get buzzed/drunk" was what riled everyone up so much - people I drink with are perfectly capable of drinking 5-6 pints of 5% beer without losing their ability to talk sensibly and act sensibly. (That's completely aside from the health considerations of regular consumption). We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk". That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth drinking for its own sake! (The beer here in Australia, less so).
keypusher 15y ago
I really enjoyed this, thanks.
Karunamon 15y ago
Definitely putting this article into my archives. Thank you for submitting it, and please don't listen to the nay-sayers who claim this isn't technical enough for HN. The mind can be a more interesting puzzle, a more imperative problem to solve than anything man made.
guylhem 15y ago
IMHO the best part of the article is in the italian exemple: considering wine as just a kind of food or as a way to get high is a cultural thing. Usually it's both, but one of the dimensions prevails. I can not talk about Italy, but the same seems to happens in France: we try to accomodate the plate with the wine. In such a situation, you do not drink to get buzzed, but because it tastes good with the plate. IIRC I was served my first wine when I was 10, but that did not turn me into a wino. I still enjoy wine - with good food :-)
baby 15y ago
The post is called "drinking games" and it doesn't talk about drinking games at all. Which is a shame because after traveling and drinking a lot in different countries I've found that drinking games were one of the most interesting thing. For example, chinese people love to play with dices, or shouting games, hand games... french people love to play card games when drinking. Canadian people love beer pong... Which us french people find stupid, it's dirty and it's such a hassle to play. Although I love Malcolm Gladwell, surely not one of his most interesting article. PS: I also noted that professionally, alcohol is a huge part in Asia. Japan, China, Korea, you are supposed to get drunk with your boss, you are suppose to get drunk while concluding a deal... In Canada, people drink alone, they drink alcohol in front of other people who don't drink alcohol, they don't wait to drink... In France, people always drink with other people, if the other doesn't drink alcohol then one can't drink alcohol, we have to wait until everyone's poured and everyone has cheered before drinking the first sip. Also in France it's common courtesy to bring a bottle when you come to a party, meeting and to share it with everyone. I learned the BYOB (Bring your own bottle) in Canada, which I find really anti-sociable. PS2: There are a lot of local, regional alcoholic drinks, but beer is something I found everywhere.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want. The higher your station, the less drunk you'll want to really get because you may have to take an important call. In Canada, people drink socially, and a smaller number drink alone (much like anywhere else). If someone doesn't want to drink at a dinner or outing, everyone else respects their choice not to drink and doesn't press them. Waiting to drink depends on the social context.
  - zalew 15y ago
    > In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want Comming from a culture that doesn't accept fake-drinking I must ask: what's the point of it? Is there any cultural background explanation?
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
Fascinating article -- lots of food for thought here. It made me wonder. One of the common symbols of the "drinking problem" that Americans had in the mid 1800s through prohibition was the saloon. It was men-only, rowdy, all the business got done there, and men would come home drunk to abuse their families. Truly a horrible thing, of course, yet based on this article I wonder if the mixing of cultures led to a loss of common rules? Or in other words, perhaps the more culturally diverse the saloon was, the greater the problem of alcoholism in the surrounding homes? Interesting stuff! Thanks for posting.
mynameishere 15y ago
Typical Gladwell article. In fact, the truth is simple: The farther from the cradle of civilization [1] you get, the worse the alcoholism. Thus, Arabs and Jews are rarely alcoholics, whereas Irish and Russians commonly are. When you get to Indigenous Americans and Australians, alcoholism is a serious problem. It's simple adaptation, no different than adaptation to smallpox. [1] Where ethanol was first manufactured.
- eurleif 15y ago
  If that's true, do you think alcohol should be regulated differently for members of different racial/ethnic groups? That's a pretty controversial thing to suggest, but it seems to follow if we assume that the government should regulate alcohol at all, and that the regulation should be based on its potential to do harm.
  - evincarofautumn 15y ago
    Not race (since that is a uselessly vague concept), but there are specific genes that correlate with elevated or decreased risk of alcoholism. Perhaps identifying at-risk individuals could be used for some social good, but I’d wager any such efforts will ultimately be flawed and harmful.
- larrys 15y ago
  "Russians commonly are" Plenty of jews in this country that come from both Germany, Poland and Russia. They are not by any stretch of the imagination big drinkers and hardly drink at all.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  If that were true, then the Camba should have been roaring drunks and alcoholics. And yet a major point of the article was demonstrating this NOT to be the case. In fact, the article makes the case that it's a group's drinking CULTURE that has the biggest effect on alcoholism.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  From what I've heard, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything besides the utter lack of interesting things to do in Russia and Ireland.
MiWHackerNews 15y ago
I found this fascinating and a alternative view to my own held beliefs on alcohol. This really seems to be a better way at addressing social policy - yes beyond the genetic disposition to alcoholism there is definitely a cultural molding that determines behavior. If the expectation of behavior (say from holywood and tvland) is a major factor in the behavior of those under the influence rather than say the quantity or concentration of ethanol, maybe humanity can address this by how popular culture programs us?
pnmahoney 15y ago
"He wants to tell stories rather than to analyze a phenomenon. He tells them well enough, if you can stand the style. (Blink is written like a book intended for people who do not read books.)" -Richard Posner on Malcolm Gladwell
myopia 15y ago
I think the author has also uncovered a universal truth about drug use that relates to it's original uptake, as well as their effects whilst under the influence as detailed in the article . I believe that this relates alcohol, caffeine or 'harder' drugs. Take starting to smoke tobacco for instance, in the U.K smoking has seen a large decline within the last decade (1), this can be can be attributed to several factors including a ban on certain mediums of tobacco advertising (at cultural and social events) and an increase in government adverts that address the culture of social smoking as well as the more traditional health issues (2), it is far more 'uncool' to smoke in the UK now. Although largely harmless, drinking caffeine to 'start your day' is a behaviour largely taught by culture. To further this point, Italian people in general have a far more prevalent culture of drinking espresso than British, with the existence of espresso bars (until recently) being a rarity. I believe this has far wider implication that extend to the 'war on drugs' in the US. I personally can testify that growing up in a drug infested area, I was never tempted to partake in drug abuse due to family culture and my upbringing. (1) http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smoking/ http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smok... (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAN7Oi62e0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAN7Oi62e0

219 points by overgard 15y ago

I thought HN might be interested in this based on the post yesterday challenging people to avoid getting drunk/live in the moment. I noticed there was a lot of misunderstanding as to how alcohol works on people/groups, so this might be informative to some.

sc68cal 15y ago
I personally did not care for the article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363) because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked. If you don't like to drink, don't. If you like to drink, do so responsibly and be considerate to others. Nobody has the right to make value judgements about other people's lifestyles, on this site.
- corin_ 15y ago
  I disagreed with that entire article, but the fact that it wasn't tech-related doesn't mean it wasn't suitable for HN - neither, for that matter, does the fact that you or I disagreed with it.
- mw63214 15y ago
  " because it was not technology related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where the author worked." I find articles like this interesting, regardless of the fact that they may be far from purely technical. I happen to think that technology is a means, not an end. Finding different perspectives on problems or circumstances that I may not have been exposed to allows me to better weigh pro's and con's of an issue and think of how technology could help solve/change/improve things.
philwelch 15y ago
Thanks. It's good to have a take on this subject that really does gratify the intellectual curiosity.

RugerRedhawk 15y ago

Well, duh. It's been quite obvious to me that drunkenness was always an excuse for acting improperly.

Anon84 15y ago

There is something about the cultural dimension of social problems that eludes us. When confronted with the rowdy youth in the bar, we are happy to raise his drinking age, to tax his beer, to punish him if he drives under the influence, and to push him into treatment if his habit becomes an addiction. But we are reluctant to provide him with a positive and constructive example of how to drink. The consequences of that failure are considerable, because, in the end, culture is a more powerful tool in dealing with drinking than medicine, economics, or the law.

iso8859-1 15y ago
Well, the anti-drinking populace are telling him not to drink. And it's good advice, considering that if he's rowdy he has probably exceeded the government recommended maximum consumption level. He can never satisfy everybody anyway, so what is the problem here? I don't think the youth have problems with people not liking them drinking.
- mekoka 15y ago
  If I understood this article as I think I did, your line of reasoning is exactly what the author highlights as the center of a cultural misunderstandings regarding the effects of alcohol. The kid's rowdiness isn't so much a consequence of his drinking than it is a social conditioning that taught him it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood. Under different circumstances (in another culture), he would drink exactly the same, but would act completely differently. I think the main point he's trying to convey is that, rather than focusing on attacking alcohol on all fronts, some effort could be put forth in culturally redefining our belief of what people are supposed to act like when they drink (see the passage on first generation Italian immigrants).
  - mafro 15y ago
    "it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood" And here you've nailed the point that the OP of the first alcohol related post on HN completely missed. His repeated assertion of "drinking to get buzzed/drunk" was what riled everyone up so much - people I drink with are perfectly capable of drinking 5-6 pints of 5% beer without losing their ability to talk sensibly and act sensibly. (That's completely aside from the health considerations of regular consumption). We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk". That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth drinking for its own sake! (The beer here in Australia, less so).

keypusher 15y ago

I really enjoyed this, thanks.

Karunamon 15y ago

Definitely putting this article into my archives. Thank you for submitting it, and please don't listen to the nay-sayers who claim this isn't technical enough for HN. The mind can be a more interesting puzzle, a more imperative problem to solve than anything man made.

guylhem 15y ago

IMHO the best part of the article is in the italian exemple: considering wine as just a kind of food or as a way to get high is a cultural thing. Usually it's both, but one of the dimensions prevails. I can not talk about Italy, but the same seems to happens in France: we try to accomodate the plate with the wine. In such a situation, you do not drink to get buzzed, but because it tastes good with the plate. IIRC I was served my first wine when I was 10, but that did not turn me into a wino. I still enjoy wine - with good food :-)

baby 15y ago

The post is called "drinking games" and it doesn't talk about drinking games at all. Which is a shame because after traveling and drinking a lot in different countries I've found that drinking games were one of the most interesting thing. For example, chinese people love to play with dices, or shouting games, hand games... french people love to play card games when drinking. Canadian people love beer pong... Which us french people find stupid, it's dirty and it's such a hassle to play. Although I love Malcolm Gladwell, surely not one of his most interesting article. PS: I also noted that professionally, alcohol is a huge part in Asia. Japan, China, Korea, you are supposed to get drunk with your boss, you are suppose to get drunk while concluding a deal... In Canada, people drink alone, they drink alcohol in front of other people who don't drink alcohol, they don't wait to drink... In France, people always drink with other people, if the other doesn't drink alcohol then one can't drink alcohol, we have to wait until everyone's poured and everyone has cheered before drinking the first sip. Also in France it's common courtesy to bring a bottle when you come to a party, meeting and to share it with everyone. I learned the BYOB (Bring your own bottle) in Canada, which I find really anti-sociable. PS2: There are a lot of local, regional alcoholic drinks, but beer is something I found everywhere.

kstenerud 15y ago
In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want. The higher your station, the less drunk you'll want to really get because you may have to take an important call. In Canada, people drink socially, and a smaller number drink alone (much like anywhere else). If someone doesn't want to drink at a dinner or outing, everyone else respects their choice not to drink and doesn't press them. Waiting to drink depends on the social context.
- zalew 15y ago
  > In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you can if you want Comming from a culture that doesn't accept fake-drinking I must ask: what's the point of it? Is there any cultural background explanation?

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

Fascinating article -- lots of food for thought here. It made me wonder. One of the common symbols of the "drinking problem" that Americans had in the mid 1800s through prohibition was the saloon. It was men-only, rowdy, all the business got done there, and men would come home drunk to abuse their families. Truly a horrible thing, of course, yet based on this article I wonder if the mixing of cultures led to a loss of common rules? Or in other words, perhaps the more culturally diverse the saloon was, the greater the problem of alcoholism in the surrounding homes? Interesting stuff! Thanks for posting.

mynameishere 15y ago

Typical Gladwell article. In fact, the truth is simple: The farther from the cradle of civilization [1] you get, the worse the alcoholism. Thus, Arabs and Jews are rarely alcoholics, whereas Irish and Russians commonly are. When you get to Indigenous Americans and Australians, alcoholism is a serious problem. It's simple adaptation, no different than adaptation to smallpox. [1] Where ethanol was first manufactured.

eurleif 15y ago
If that's true, do you think alcohol should be regulated differently for members of different racial/ethnic groups? That's a pretty controversial thing to suggest, but it seems to follow if we assume that the government should regulate alcohol at all, and that the regulation should be based on its potential to do harm.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  Not race (since that is a uselessly vague concept), but there are specific genes that correlate with elevated or decreased risk of alcoholism. Perhaps identifying at-risk individuals could be used for some social good, but I’d wager any such efforts will ultimately be flawed and harmful.
larrys 15y ago
"Russians commonly are" Plenty of jews in this country that come from both Germany, Poland and Russia. They are not by any stretch of the imagination big drinkers and hardly drink at all.
kstenerud 15y ago
If that were true, then the Camba should have been roaring drunks and alcoholics. And yet a major point of the article was demonstrating this NOT to be the case. In fact, the article makes the case that it's a group's drinking CULTURE that has the biggest effect on alcoholism.
sliverstorm 15y ago
From what I've heard, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything besides the utter lack of interesting things to do in Russia and Ireland.

MiWHackerNews 15y ago

I found this fascinating and a alternative view to my own held beliefs on alcohol. This really seems to be a better way at addressing social policy - yes beyond the genetic disposition to alcoholism there is definitely a cultural molding that determines behavior. If the expectation of behavior (say from holywood and tvland) is a major factor in the behavior of those under the influence rather than say the quantity or concentration of ethanol, maybe humanity can address this by how popular culture programs us?

pnmahoney 15y ago

"He wants to tell stories rather than to analyze a phenomenon. He tells them well enough, if you can stand the style. (Blink is written like a book intended for people who do not read books.)" -Richard Posner on Malcolm Gladwell

myopia 15y ago

I think the author has also uncovered a universal truth about drug use that relates to it's original uptake, as well as their effects whilst under the influence as detailed in the article . I believe that this relates alcohol, caffeine or 'harder' drugs. Take starting to smoke tobacco for instance, in the U.K smoking has seen a large decline within the last decade (1), this can be can be attributed to several factors including a ban on certain mediums of tobacco advertising (at cultural and social events) and an increase in government adverts that address the culture of social smoking as well as the more traditional health issues (2), it is far more 'uncool' to smoke in the UK now. Although largely harmless, drinking caffeine to 'start your day' is a behaviour largely taught by culture. To further this point, Italian people in general have a far more prevalent culture of drinking espresso than British, with the existence of espresso bars (until recently) being a rarity. I believe this has far wider implication that extend to the 'war on drugs' in the US. I personally can testify that growing up in a drug infested area, I was never tempted to partake in drug abuse due to family culture and my upbringing. (1) http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smoking/ http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smok... (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAN7Oi62e0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAN7Oi62e0