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So I think its fair to say the USSR, China, Cuba, North Kora were a form of communism that had the following characteristics. 1. Authoritarian 2. Central planni

by fdye 3y ago

So I think its fair to say the USSR, China, Cuba, North Kora were a form of communism that had the following characteristics. 1. Authoritarian 2. Central planning (perhaps the same thing) 3. Slow to change These are all valid criticisms based on what we know from history, etc. I think there is a bit of nuance here though based on a glance of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines and some basic history. 1. China did experience some horrible famines, particularly the '59-'61. However, they had experienced these, ~20years+/- 10 years, since at least the 1800s, perhaps 1700. That is well into royal rule prior to the revolution. Particularly the 1810, 1811, 1846, and 1849 (Four famines, ~45Mil dead). Just saying, objectively, not sure the average peasant was more or less likely to experience a famine under the royal rule or communism. 2. Russia and the surrounding neighbors that were consumed by the USSR, seem to have a similar story. The Tsar's in particular were not very good at economics, logistics, or resource management. 3. Post WWII cold war meant virtually every communist country was isolated and sort of by definition a centralized state. They were locked out of the emerging reserve currency (Dollar). They could not freely go to market with their goods. As well as they were all sort of frenemies of each other (see relationship between Korea, China, and USSR for examples). Look I'm no great lover of communism, I sat through the same U.S. history classes in the 80's-90's, saw the wall fall on TV, etc. That said I think the one thing no one acknowledges is that people don't start revolutions and try out radical types of government because their lives are going just swell! Shit maybe its to much Civ as a kid, but I think its important to be honest about the pluses and minuses of government and the specifics of the people, region, and time period that these changes occur.

zabzonk 3y ago
> people don't start revolutions and try out radical types of government because their lives are going just swell! of course they don't, and i deeply sympathise. but what they always seem to end up with like genocidal maniacs like mao and stalin. both communists. and of course, in the west, we had hitler. but after 1945 i would say human life has improved in the west - more than i can say for china (despite industrialisation) and the "former" ussr. i should say i am someone of broadly left-wing leanings.
- CrackerNews 3y ago
  In the USSR and China, the large scale deaths were linked to failures during economic development. Despite the failures, there were improvements in quality of life. (The CIA factbook about USSR nutrition being on par or better than the West being one example.) They end up being a class ahead of the poorest of the third world. The issue was that the USSR did not catch up to the leaps the West made. China is catching up using their illiberalism to enforce protectionism and national economic development. If anything, this seems to emphasize that economic development requieres global trade, and this was an issue with the USSR and early China.
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    > In the USSR and China, the large scale deaths were linked to failures during economic development. no, they were caused by ideological stupidity (stalin: look up "kulaks", mao: see cultural revolution and great leap forward), and both states being governed, by terror, by paranoid megalomaniacs. read a history book. > this was an issue with the USSR and early China. did the west not provide the ussr and china with enourmous amounts of military, economic and technical aid during and after ww2 (selling the ussr jet engines, for example)? oh, yes, it did!
    - CrackerNews 3y ago
      The ideological stupidities were motivated by the goal of economic development. Stalin thought kulaks' economic interests were holding back the centralizing industrialization of agriculture through collectivization. Mao wanted to move from a peasant-based economy to industrial-based through the great leap. (The cultural revolution was a populist cudgel to make the Western educated intellectuals adapt and submit to the local Chinese conditions.) --- I wouldn't lean on wartime subsidies too much because they are extraordinary circumstances. The USSR focused on self-sufficiency to the point of foreign trade only being 4% of GDP in 1985. China started opening up after Nixon normalized relations.

by fdye 3y ago

zabzonk 3y ago

> people don't start revolutions and try out radical types of government because their lives are going just swell! of course they don't, and i deeply sympathise. but what they always seem to end up with like genocidal maniacs like mao and stalin. both communists. and of course, in the west, we had hitler. but after 1945 i would say human life has improved in the west - more than i can say for china (despite industrialisation) and the "former" ussr. i should say i am someone of broadly left-wing leanings.

CrackerNews 3y ago
In the USSR and China, the large scale deaths were linked to failures during economic development. Despite the failures, there were improvements in quality of life. (The CIA factbook about USSR nutrition being on par or better than the West being one example.) They end up being a class ahead of the poorest of the third world. The issue was that the USSR did not catch up to the leaps the West made. China is catching up using their illiberalism to enforce protectionism and national economic development. If anything, this seems to emphasize that economic development requieres global trade, and this was an issue with the USSR and early China.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  > In the USSR and China, the large scale deaths were linked to failures during economic development. no, they were caused by ideological stupidity (stalin: look up "kulaks", mao: see cultural revolution and great leap forward), and both states being governed, by terror, by paranoid megalomaniacs. read a history book. > this was an issue with the USSR and early China. did the west not provide the ussr and china with enourmous amounts of military, economic and technical aid during and after ww2 (selling the ussr jet engines, for example)? oh, yes, it did!
  - CrackerNews 3y ago
    The ideological stupidities were motivated by the goal of economic development. Stalin thought kulaks' economic interests were holding back the centralizing industrialization of agriculture through collectivization. Mao wanted to move from a peasant-based economy to industrial-based through the great leap. (The cultural revolution was a populist cudgel to make the Western educated intellectuals adapt and submit to the local Chinese conditions.) --- I wouldn't lean on wartime subsidies too much because they are extraordinary circumstances. The USSR focused on self-sufficiency to the point of foreign trade only being 4% of GDP in 1985. China started opening up after Nixon normalized relations.