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On a similar note, it is becoming increasingly popular to assert that there's no such thing as free will, asserting that this will lead to "compassion" for peop

On a similar note, it is becoming increasingly popular to assert that there's no such thing as free will, asserting that this will lead to "compassion" for people convicted of crimes. But it's really about giving up on people, warehousing them, and denying them any chance at all. It is a caste system, just disguised as a compassion system, or a "justice" system, all a nothing system in which people mean nothing.

kzrdude 4y ago
It's all off topic, but I've thought that what does the question of free will have to do with sentencing? That's just too metaphysical. Punishments surely have a function that's independent of free will.
- HEmanZ 4y ago
  Yes they do, and even morality can be independent of free will. It just becomes impossible to assert that a Christian God judges some super-natural “You” without Free Will. That’s about all your lose.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
    I'm hardly a believer in deities, but if there were such a judge somewhere, why would it be required of humans to have free will before judging them? When I go to the grocery store, I judge which bananas to purchase. No one asserts that bananas have free will.
    - HEmanZ 4y ago
      Ya this is why I used “Christian God” instead of generic “god”, because you’re totally right.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
        By any reasonable method of cataloging Christian deities, there are well over a dozen. Perhaps hundreds, all distinct. Christianity has this annoying habit of failing to (often) speak the name of their deities, so it's difficult to make the distinction sometimes. But even in fictional narratives where names are not used, it's possible to identify distinct individuals based on their actions, personality, and carefully correlating together various stories. Same here. Did you think there was only one?
- slashdev 4y ago
  Because if there’s no free will, the person you’re punishing merely behaved according to the state in their brain and couldn’t have acted differently in the moment. Punishment is still useful as a deterrent, but there’s no “they deserved it” component. I’m not quite sure what to make of it all. I read Sam Harris’s book on the subject, and can’t fault the logic. On the other hand I find the conclusion unsettling and prefer not to dwell on it. Usually I follow the logic fearlessly whatever it takes me, regardless of my feelings. But on this one, I do not. I think free will aside, I’d rather the legal system focused on rehabilitation than on punishment where possible. It just screws up enough that the punishment might be applied to an innocent person. Also you want people that are able to rejoin society to do so from a position where they have hope and opportunity, and don’t fall back on old habits.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Philosophically, I think there is a "you deserved it", maybe even more so, if there is no free will. After all, it is then unavoidable. How could it be any more deserved than that? :)
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
    If there's no free will, I'm merely punishing according to a state in my brain and I couldn't act differently. > I’d rather the legal system focused on rehabilitation than on punishment where possible. Rehabilitation is science fiction. We're vaguely aware that we should be able to travel to other stars... and we might manage that too, someday. But at least the details are known with that one. We understand how much reaction mass it'd take. What payloads would be possible. We have an inkling of how to make some robotic probe navigate a new stellar system. Rehabilitation? If we define it in a meaningful way, that is for a criminal that is likely to reoffend again in a significant way after being released... can we condition that incarcerated human to have a measurably lower risk of reoffense? That's voodoo. There are lots of ways to cheat it (just pick the criminals who are unlikely to reoffend and put them in resort prison for a short stint far away from the bad apples). Lots of ways to be blind to the bad outcomes, and overemphasize the good outcomes no one should take credit for. I've asked many times for someone to cite some credible theory of (criminal/non-criminal) human minds that makes it possible to lower the risk of recidivism... and everyone's sure that there must be. If you don't even have such a theory, how can you engineer a solution? The best that I ever hear is "but Europe!".
HEmanZ 4y ago
Has a popular podcaster or news stating been saying this recently? I never heard this excuse until a few days ago and then all of a sudden it’s all over the Internet forums. A lot of people in the west have not believed in capitol “F” Free Will for a loooong time. A huge swath of the intellectual world stopped around the time of Hume, so it’s been a central idea in the intellectual class since the American revolution. Not sure why now is different.
- kerblang 4y ago
  Firstly Sam Harris published a popular book deriving anti-free-will from scientific determinism, and Robert Sapolsky has also been a contributor, deriving it from baboon research and neurology. I think the American Revolution was vehemently predicated on free will, vis-à-vis liberty. Many other political agendas reject the notion of a "commoner" being able to think for themselves and seek a more restrictive society.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
The 14th amendment was carefully constructed to allow for slave prison labor as long as there's "due process" involved.

kzrdude 4y ago

It's all off topic, but I've thought that what does the question of free will have to do with sentencing? That's just too metaphysical. Punishments surely have a function that's independent of free will.

HEmanZ 4y ago
Yes they do, and even morality can be independent of free will. It just becomes impossible to assert that a Christian God judges some super-natural “You” without Free Will. That’s about all your lose.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
  I'm hardly a believer in deities, but if there were such a judge somewhere, why would it be required of humans to have free will before judging them? When I go to the grocery store, I judge which bananas to purchase. No one asserts that bananas have free will.
  - HEmanZ 4y ago
    Ya this is why I used “Christian God” instead of generic “god”, because you’re totally right.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
      By any reasonable method of cataloging Christian deities, there are well over a dozen. Perhaps hundreds, all distinct. Christianity has this annoying habit of failing to (often) speak the name of their deities, so it's difficult to make the distinction sometimes. But even in fictional narratives where names are not used, it's possible to identify distinct individuals based on their actions, personality, and carefully correlating together various stories. Same here. Did you think there was only one?
slashdev 4y ago
Because if there’s no free will, the person you’re punishing merely behaved according to the state in their brain and couldn’t have acted differently in the moment. Punishment is still useful as a deterrent, but there’s no “they deserved it” component. I’m not quite sure what to make of it all. I read Sam Harris’s book on the subject, and can’t fault the logic. On the other hand I find the conclusion unsettling and prefer not to dwell on it. Usually I follow the logic fearlessly whatever it takes me, regardless of my feelings. But on this one, I do not. I think free will aside, I’d rather the legal system focused on rehabilitation than on punishment where possible. It just screws up enough that the punishment might be applied to an innocent person. Also you want people that are able to rejoin society to do so from a position where they have hope and opportunity, and don’t fall back on old habits.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Philosophically, I think there is a "you deserved it", maybe even more so, if there is no free will. After all, it is then unavoidable. How could it be any more deserved than that? :)
- NoMoreNicksLeft 4y ago
  If there's no free will, I'm merely punishing according to a state in my brain and I couldn't act differently. > I’d rather the legal system focused on rehabilitation than on punishment where possible. Rehabilitation is science fiction. We're vaguely aware that we should be able to travel to other stars... and we might manage that too, someday. But at least the details are known with that one. We understand how much reaction mass it'd take. What payloads would be possible. We have an inkling of how to make some robotic probe navigate a new stellar system. Rehabilitation? If we define it in a meaningful way, that is for a criminal that is likely to reoffend again in a significant way after being released... can we condition that incarcerated human to have a measurably lower risk of reoffense? That's voodoo. There are lots of ways to cheat it (just pick the criminals who are unlikely to reoffend and put them in resort prison for a short stint far away from the bad apples). Lots of ways to be blind to the bad outcomes, and overemphasize the good outcomes no one should take credit for. I've asked many times for someone to cite some credible theory of (criminal/non-criminal) human minds that makes it possible to lower the risk of recidivism... and everyone's sure that there must be. If you don't even have such a theory, how can you engineer a solution? The best that I ever hear is "but Europe!".

HEmanZ 4y ago

Has a popular podcaster or news stating been saying this recently? I never heard this excuse until a few days ago and then all of a sudden it’s all over the Internet forums. A lot of people in the west have not believed in capitol “F” Free Will for a loooong time. A huge swath of the intellectual world stopped around the time of Hume, so it’s been a central idea in the intellectual class since the American revolution. Not sure why now is different.

kerblang 4y ago
Firstly Sam Harris published a popular book deriving anti-free-will from scientific determinism, and Robert Sapolsky has also been a contributor, deriving it from baboon research and neurology. I think the American Revolution was vehemently predicated on free will, vis-à-vis liberty. Many other political agendas reject the notion of a "commoner" being able to think for themselves and seek a more restrictive society.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

The 14th amendment was carefully constructed to allow for slave prison labor as long as there's "due process" involved.