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It's tricky. I go around the neighbourhood and meet lovely, warm, friendly, happy inviting people. But I'm a white english-speaking (albeit with a slight accen

It's tricky. I go around the neighbourhood and meet lovely, warm, friendly, happy inviting people. But I'm a white english-speaking (albeit with a slight accent) reasonably-well-off male so of course they're nice. Then they add me on facebook or twitter or ask me to come to their church, or I hang out with them at their BBQ, and god damn it, they turn out to be angry racist homophobic xenophobic folks actively working to make life as difficult as they can for [women|people of colour|homosexuals|immigrants|poor people|anybody different], while promoting black salve and homeopathy and power of prayer as remedies and planning how they're going to "get" the biden/trudau/scientists/leftie/woke/socialist/pinkie/commie/etc bastards and their vaccines and chips and jewish world domination plans. I've been genuinely morally/philosophically/existentially torn last decade: do I try to see only the good in people? Do I try to engage them in commonalities, build from positions of mutual agreement? OR, does that make me an enabler of evil if I'm not tackling and facing and acknowledging and arguing their darker demons?

hydrok9 4y ago
It's not your responsibility to save the world. You can engage with people just on the basis of your shared humanity. If they refuse to let you disagree with their beliefs, let them go.
trompetenaccoun 4y ago
White English-speaking people are a minority in the world. If it seems that you can't get along with them, why not try out living in a place where there are fewer of them? Cameroon, Pakistan or Indonesia... so many countries to choose from. It could be a healing experience getting out of your bubble and experiencing less racism, homophobia and all the other toxic stuff you describe.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I guess it would not be obvious from my post; I was born in a non-English speaking country; and after years of civil war, racism, xenophobia, and people shooting at me because of my name or perceived religion or ethnicity etc, I'm now in Canada, and happily, gratefully, excitedly so :) But I am always wary of the risk and danger of my new country going the way of my old country. I don't think it's a given that Canada and Canadians will be tolerant, open minded, welcoming, friendly - and indeed, many people underneath their veneer, are not. In this context, mentioning in my post that I'm english speaking is to acknowledge my privilege of not immediatelly appearing to some people as being an immigrant, poor, or different than some of my neighbours. I imagine e.g. a dark-skinned woman with a less Western name and more obviously non-christian, would find out some of these fine folks' true nature a lot faster :-/
  - dpc050505 4y ago
    > I don't think it's a given that Canada and Canadians will be tolerant, open minded, welcoming, friendly - and indeed, many people underneath their veneer, are not. A lot of Québécois have stories of relatives being arrested without probable cause by the RCMP during the october crisis of 1970. Some of us have indigenous friends whose parents were in the residential school system. A lot of us have witnessed unconstitutional arrests during g20 protests in Toronto in 2011 or in Québec in 2012 go unpunished for the politicians who ordered them and the cops who carried them out (it's literally kidnapping). Canada is a corporatocracy. Read Alain Denault's books. Canada acts as a legal shelter for natural ressource extraction companies that commit crimes in developing countries. A lot of the big markets in the country (groceries, telecom, etc.) are full on oligopolies that are protected by the government. This country is part of the british empire and when you pull back the veneer of politeness and decency you see a very violent country.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      I don't think we are in a disagreement, necessarily. To another poster's point, I've lived in different bubbles and this one is better. It's far from perfect though, and it's not guaranteed whether it'll go toward better or less good.
vkou 4y ago
It's not your job, or a moral imperative for you to civilize barbarians. It's also almost impossible to convert people like that out of their cesspit of ignorance and hate. If you want to spend time with them, despite all that, you're not a bad person. If you don't, you're not a bad person either. It's a personal choice. A lot of people who have those people as relatives struggle with the question of whether to cut them out of their lives. Ultimately, I can't judge them, regardless of what decision they make.
dfxm12 4y ago
I subscribe to the philosophy that "the only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing." Figuring out what you can do within your own sphere of influence can be hard, but you certainly don't have to pretend like bigots are nice people because they invite you to their BBQ.
athenot 4y ago
Part of this is an interesting side effect that interacting with people 1:1 is different than when the interaction is intermediated by a group or an ideology or a commercial platform. I find that when I strip away group dynamics, people all have similar basic needs; that many fears are shared; that many people have similar hopes even if specific struggles or needs vary greatly. Yes it's disappointing to find out that a nice person turns out to be part of a digusting group, but on the flip side, sometimes seeing the humanity in different people can help lessen the ideologic stronghold on some people. I have some narrow-minded friends and relatives who have been a bit less categorical just by hanging out with nice people who think totally differently than them.

hydrok9 4y ago

It's not your responsibility to save the world. You can engage with people just on the basis of your shared humanity. If they refuse to let you disagree with their beliefs, let them go.

trompetenaccoun 4y ago

White English-speaking people are a minority in the world. If it seems that you can't get along with them, why not try out living in a place where there are fewer of them? Cameroon, Pakistan or Indonesia... so many countries to choose from. It could be a healing experience getting out of your bubble and experiencing less racism, homophobia and all the other toxic stuff you describe.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
I guess it would not be obvious from my post; I was born in a non-English speaking country; and after years of civil war, racism, xenophobia, and people shooting at me because of my name or perceived religion or ethnicity etc, I'm now in Canada, and happily, gratefully, excitedly so :) But I am always wary of the risk and danger of my new country going the way of my old country. I don't think it's a given that Canada and Canadians will be tolerant, open minded, welcoming, friendly - and indeed, many people underneath their veneer, are not. In this context, mentioning in my post that I'm english speaking is to acknowledge my privilege of not immediatelly appearing to some people as being an immigrant, poor, or different than some of my neighbours. I imagine e.g. a dark-skinned woman with a less Western name and more obviously non-christian, would find out some of these fine folks' true nature a lot faster :-/
- dpc050505 4y ago
  > I don't think it's a given that Canada and Canadians will be tolerant, open minded, welcoming, friendly - and indeed, many people underneath their veneer, are not. A lot of Québécois have stories of relatives being arrested without probable cause by the RCMP during the october crisis of 1970. Some of us have indigenous friends whose parents were in the residential school system. A lot of us have witnessed unconstitutional arrests during g20 protests in Toronto in 2011 or in Québec in 2012 go unpunished for the politicians who ordered them and the cops who carried them out (it's literally kidnapping). Canada is a corporatocracy. Read Alain Denault's books. Canada acts as a legal shelter for natural ressource extraction companies that commit crimes in developing countries. A lot of the big markets in the country (groceries, telecom, etc.) are full on oligopolies that are protected by the government. This country is part of the british empire and when you pull back the veneer of politeness and decency you see a very violent country.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    I don't think we are in a disagreement, necessarily. To another poster's point, I've lived in different bubbles and this one is better. It's far from perfect though, and it's not guaranteed whether it'll go toward better or less good.

vkou 4y ago

It's not your job, or a moral imperative for you to civilize barbarians. It's also almost impossible to convert people like that out of their cesspit of ignorance and hate. If you want to spend time with them, despite all that, you're not a bad person. If you don't, you're not a bad person either. It's a personal choice. A lot of people who have those people as relatives struggle with the question of whether to cut them out of their lives. Ultimately, I can't judge them, regardless of what decision they make.

dfxm12 4y ago

I subscribe to the philosophy that "the only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing." Figuring out what you can do within your own sphere of influence can be hard, but you certainly don't have to pretend like bigots are nice people because they invite you to their BBQ.

athenot 4y ago

Part of this is an interesting side effect that interacting with people 1:1 is different than when the interaction is intermediated by a group or an ideology or a commercial platform. I find that when I strip away group dynamics, people all have similar basic needs; that many fears are shared; that many people have similar hopes even if specific struggles or needs vary greatly. Yes it's disappointing to find out that a nice person turns out to be part of a digusting group, but on the flip side, sometimes seeing the humanity in different people can help lessen the ideologic stronghold on some people. I have some narrow-minded friends and relatives who have been a bit less categorical just by hanging out with nice people who think totally differently than them.