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What on earth are you talking about? The article is discussing partnering with Arm using their 18A node. At 20A, Intel will be transitioning from its FinFET des

What on earth are you talking about? The article is discussing partnering with Arm using their 18A node. At 20A, Intel will be transitioning from its FinFET design over to a new type of transistor, known as a Gate-All-Around transistor, or GAAFET. In Intel’s case, the marketing name they are giving their version is RibbonFET. This is a technology that only started to come to a head in early 2020. The other arm of Intel’s 20A and onwards design is what the company is calling ‘PowerVia’. This is usually referred to as ‘backside power delivery’ in the industry. Although slightly older, we're still only talking about 2017 at the earliest. Intel has its 2nm node (called 20A, followed by 18A six months later) lined up for production to start in the first half of 2024, which compares to TSMC’s equivalent node (called N2) which is scheduled for the second half of 2025. 18A will be half a node denser than N2, while also being 12 months earlier to market. As to IFS as a concept, it's only recently been revamped in 2021 after a lackluster attempt in 2013 as you mentioned. So far they've announced partnerships with Arm, MediaTek, Qualcomm, AWS, and the DoD. That's a pretty heavy hitting pack, not including all of Tower Semiconductors customers. Intel wouldn't be building another 3 fabs if it wasn't serious this time about building capacity for other companies.

fbn79 4y ago
Interesting to know that "2nm" and "20A"(Armstrong) are just marketing names, they don't reflect physical sizes - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20term%20%222,6%5D%5B7%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20ter...
- gibspaulding 4y ago
  My understanding is that hasn't been the case for a long time now. Wikipedia is saying the last node actually measured by transistor length was from 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Technology_node https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrica...
- smolder 4y ago
  Probably an autocorrect mishap, but in 20A the A is for angstrom.
klelatti 4y ago
> 18A will be half a node denser than N2, while also being 12 months earlier to market. It would be interesting to hear what the consensus view is on Intel actually being able to meet this timetable. Surely a strong degree of scepticism is warranted given their recent record.
- chasil 4y ago
  A recent interview with Shang-Yi Chiang, former Vice President of R&D at TSMC (also held positions at TI, HP, and SMIC) had insightful commentary on the speed of bringing up a new node. "We all take two years to develop one generation, how come you guys can do it in one or one-and-a-half year?" And they asked if some of your customer transfer technology to you or what not? And I told him, "No," I told him that, "That's not true." I think he probably implied we steal technology from customer, the way he talk. And I say, "I'll tell you why." I said that, "When we develop one node, basically you have some learning cycles. First, you do some simulation. And you have some idea, then you run wafers to prove that. So, you run a group of wafers according to simulation and you have some splits. The wafer runs through the fab, they come out and you measure them, you analyze them, and you try to improve and you run this again. This again, you run. So, this is learning cycle." At that time, "It takes about six learning cycle, roughly, to complete one generation." Of course, you had some short loops and not just one. I said that, "My R&D wafer in the fab run much faster than yours, because my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift. So, your R&D wafer move eight hours a day, my work/move 24-hours a day. So, my wafers go three times faster, even if you are twice smarter than me, I still beat you up." <laughter> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102792671 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10279267...
- smolder 4y ago
  Some skepticism, but not too much. There's a decent possibility the self-sabotage at Intel stopped after new CEO Pat Gelsinger took over. Previous leadership was seriously mismanaging things. The following comment sheds some light on their stagnation during the 10nm/'Intel 7' node development period: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31759034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31759034
scarface74 4y ago
Intel’s first announcement when they decided to manufacture for third parties wasn’t ARM it was MediaTek. Intel has a long way to go to prove they can catch up. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte... Intel isn’t dabbing cutting edge chips from them
aDfbrtVt 4y ago
Looks like Intel 4nm will only start shipping 2023H2. I'm not sure I see Intel 2nm shipping less than 6 months later, especially given Intel's recent history of stumbling on execution. How firm do you believe the 2024H2 delivery date of N2 to be?
genmud 4y ago
Intel has missed so many deliverables that I take any of their statements with a healthy dose of skepticism. Like their 7nm process has been delayed, what? 4 times? Have they even shipped it? Its the same story they had with the 10nm process too. IIRC they were behind like 5-6 years on that one too.
- artimaeis 4y ago
  Intel Raptor lake CPUs are widely available these days and are built on Intel 7N. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_Lake?cmdf=intel+13th+gen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_Lake?cmdf=intel+13th+...
  - monocasa 4y ago
    Intel 7 isn't their 7nm process, but their renamed 10nm process.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      TSMC 7nm HPC: 66M Transistors/mm^2 TSMC 7nm Mobile: 96M Transistors/mm^2 Intel 7: 100M Transistors/mm^2 TSMC 7nm+: 115M Transistors/mm^2 It was perfectly fair for them to rename it, but yes, in the context of deliverables it's the same slipped process that used to be called 10nm.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- baq 4y ago
  Yeah Intel has had a great roadmap for the past decade. They haven’t executed most of it and when they did, they were years late to market. They have a couple years to fix that or they’ll live on government subsidies.
nsteel 4y ago
> Arm, MediaTek, Qualcomm, AWS, and the DoD Remember that unlike the others, Arm won't be an actual customer here. They don't require any capacity themselves.

fbn79 4y ago

Interesting to know that "2nm" and "20A"(Armstrong) are just marketing names, they don't reflect physical sizes - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20term%20%222,6%5D%5B7%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20ter...

gibspaulding 4y ago
My understanding is that hasn't been the case for a long time now. Wikipedia is saying the last node actually measured by transistor length was from 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Technology_node https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrica...
smolder 4y ago
Probably an autocorrect mishap, but in 20A the A is for angstrom.

klelatti 4y ago

> 18A will be half a node denser than N2, while also being 12 months earlier to market. It would be interesting to hear what the consensus view is on Intel actually being able to meet this timetable. Surely a strong degree of scepticism is warranted given their recent record.

chasil 4y ago
A recent interview with Shang-Yi Chiang, former Vice President of R&D at TSMC (also held positions at TI, HP, and SMIC) had insightful commentary on the speed of bringing up a new node. "We all take two years to develop one generation, how come you guys can do it in one or one-and-a-half year?" And they asked if some of your customer transfer technology to you or what not? And I told him, "No," I told him that, "That's not true." I think he probably implied we steal technology from customer, the way he talk. And I say, "I'll tell you why." I said that, "When we develop one node, basically you have some learning cycles. First, you do some simulation. And you have some idea, then you run wafers to prove that. So, you run a group of wafers according to simulation and you have some splits. The wafer runs through the fab, they come out and you measure them, you analyze them, and you try to improve and you run this again. This again, you run. So, this is learning cycle." At that time, "It takes about six learning cycle, roughly, to complete one generation." Of course, you had some short loops and not just one. I said that, "My R&D wafer in the fab run much faster than yours, because my R&D engineer works three shifts and you only work one shift. So, your R&D wafer move eight hours a day, my work/move 24-hours a day. So, my wafers go three times faster, even if you are twice smarter than me, I still beat you up." <laughter> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102792671 https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10279267...
smolder 4y ago
Some skepticism, but not too much. There's a decent possibility the self-sabotage at Intel stopped after new CEO Pat Gelsinger took over. Previous leadership was seriously mismanaging things. The following comment sheds some light on their stagnation during the 10nm/'Intel 7' node development period: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31759034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31759034

scarface74 4y ago

Intel’s first announcement when they decided to manufacture for third parties wasn’t ARM it was MediaTek. Intel has a long way to go to prove they can catch up. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte... Intel isn’t dabbing cutting edge chips from them

aDfbrtVt 4y ago

Looks like Intel 4nm will only start shipping 2023H2. I'm not sure I see Intel 2nm shipping less than 6 months later, especially given Intel's recent history of stumbling on execution. How firm do you believe the 2024H2 delivery date of N2 to be?

genmud 4y ago

Intel has missed so many deliverables that I take any of their statements with a healthy dose of skepticism. Like their 7nm process has been delayed, what? 4 times? Have they even shipped it? Its the same story they had with the 10nm process too. IIRC they were behind like 5-6 years on that one too.

artimaeis 4y ago
Intel Raptor lake CPUs are widely available these days and are built on Intel 7N. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_Lake?cmdf=intel+13th+gen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_Lake?cmdf=intel+13th+...
- monocasa 4y ago
  Intel 7 isn't their 7nm process, but their renamed 10nm process.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    TSMC 7nm HPC: 66M Transistors/mm^2 TSMC 7nm Mobile: 96M Transistors/mm^2 Intel 7: 100M Transistors/mm^2 TSMC 7nm+: 115M Transistors/mm^2 It was perfectly fair for them to rename it, but yes, in the context of deliverables it's the same slipped process that used to be called 10nm.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
baq 4y ago
Yeah Intel has had a great roadmap for the past decade. They haven’t executed most of it and when they did, they were years late to market. They have a couple years to fix that or they’ll live on government subsidies.

nsteel 4y ago

> Arm, MediaTek, Qualcomm, AWS, and the DoD Remember that unlike the others, Arm won't be an actual customer here. They don't require any capacity themselves.