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I wonder how this affects TSMCs business in the long run and if this is a move that is specifically geared towards foundries to come under US ownership. Interes

I wonder how this affects TSMCs business in the long run and if this is a move that is specifically geared towards foundries to come under US ownership. Interesting regardless.

scarface74 3y ago
Intel’s first announced partnership to be a third party fab is to manufacture chips based on processes that were state of the art in 2013. TSMC doesn’t have much to fear in the near future. Edit: I see where the confusion lies. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte... This was announced two years ago. Intel hasn’t proven that it can be a third party manufacturer for anything close to cutting edge Intel announced they would be producing chips for MediaTek two years ago.
- pedrocr 3y ago
  Are you perhaps confusing 18A with 18nm? 18A is 1.8nm and is scheduled for the second half of 2024.
  - sct202 3y ago
    They're referencing the first round of IFS which launched in 2013 and never really became much of anything but had a lot of announcements and fanfare at the time. Their foundry would have been the most advanced available foundry processes at the time had it launched as planned. From Feb 2013: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-altera-intel-manufacturing/intel-takes-big-step-in-chip-foundry-business-idUSBRE91O16G20130226 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-altera-intel-manufacturin...
    - scarface74 3y ago
      Actually I was referencing the MediaTek announcement https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte...
- Aromasin 3y ago
  What on earth are you talking about? The article is discussing partnering with Arm using their 18A node. At 20A, Intel will be transitioning from its FinFET design over to a new type of transistor, known as a Gate-All-Around transistor, or GAAFET. In Intel’s case, the marketing name they are giving their version is RibbonFET. This is a technology that only started to come to a head in early 2020. The other arm of Intel’s 20A and onwards design is what the company is calling ‘PowerVia’. This is usually referred to as ‘backside power delivery’ in the industry. Although slightly older, we're still only talking about 2017 at the earliest. Intel has its 2nm node (called 20A, followed by 18A six months later) lined up for production to start in the first half of 2024, which compares to TSMC’s equivalent node (called N2) which is scheduled for the second half of 2025. 18A will be half a node denser than N2, while also being 12 months earlier to market. As to IFS as a concept, it's only recently been revamped in 2021 after a lackluster attempt in 2013 as you mentioned. So far they've announced partnerships with Arm, MediaTek, Qualcomm, AWS, and the DoD. That's a pretty heavy hitting pack, not including all of Tower Semiconductors customers. Intel wouldn't be building another 3 fabs if it wasn't serious this time about building capacity for other companies.
  - fbn79 3y ago
    Interesting to know that "2nm" and "20A"(Armstrong) are just marketing names, they don't reflect physical sizes - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20term%20%222,6%5D%5B7%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20ter...
    - gibspaulding 3y ago
      My understanding is that hasn't been the case for a long time now. Wikipedia is saying the last node actually measured by transistor length was from 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Technology_node https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrica...
    - smolder 3y ago
      Probably an autocorrect mishap, but in 20A the A is for angstrom.
lumb63 3y ago
This is huge. For one, it can decrease geopolitical risks for US-based firms. It also offers a chance to obtain higher-end silicon. Some companies can’t afford to use TSMC’s latest and greatest silicon because big companies have soaked up all the capacity. This offers an alternative route for them. Hopefully it will make the environment much more competitive.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  Is anyone trying making IOT type devices in geopolitically stable places (in so far as there are any). Espressif seems like a pretty clear leader right now, but perhaps that is only from a hobbyists perspective? If bad things happened we would have bigger problems then wifi enabled toothbrushes, but it seems like a niche someone should make more robust and diverse.
  - consp 3y ago
    Can't IoT devices be made on older fab's like the 32/40nm and up fab's available in for instance Germany (GloFo)? There are more of them in other more-or-less stable regions.
    - selectodude 3y ago
      Of course, but I imagine Intel's spare 14nm+++++++++++ capacity is pretty significant at the moment, which is best in class (non-TSMC division).
    - blackoil 3y ago
      Shouldn't IoT be most sensitive for power consumption?
      - galangalalgol 3y ago
        Usually more sensitive to price I think? Many IOT devices plug into wall outlets. For those that don't, I would expect the wireless capability to dwarf the power consumption of the chip itself, but it seems like newer fabs would definitely be a good thing.
MangoCoffee 3y ago
more competition is better since Global Foundries drop out of 7nm and Samsung isn't doing any better.
dragonelite 3y ago
TSMC will be gobbled up by US and Chinese foundries. The talent will most likely go to Chinese fabs given they have access to a bigger customer base as more and more Chinese people get into middle income class. But not only that China might get better market access in BRICS and SCO nations which is a bigger block than the NATO and partners block. US fabs will mostly service NATO and partners nations, i don't see them being able to compete in the global south on price given Chinese infrastructure, living costs of labor and domestic market size advantages which can fuel the R&D of Chinese semi designer studios and fabs.

I wonder how this affects TSMCs business in the long run and if this is a move that is specifically geared towards foundries to come under US ownership. Interesting regardless.

scarface74 3y ago

Intel’s first announced partnership to be a third party fab is to manufacture chips based on processes that were state of the art in 2013. TSMC doesn’t have much to fear in the near future. Edit: I see where the confusion lies. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte... This was announced two years ago. Intel hasn’t proven that it can be a third party manufacturer for anything close to cutting edge Intel announced they would be producing chips for MediaTek two years ago.

pedrocr 3y ago
Are you perhaps confusing 18A with 18nm? 18A is 1.8nm and is scheduled for the second half of 2024.
- sct202 3y ago
  They're referencing the first round of IFS which launched in 2013 and never really became much of anything but had a lot of announcements and fanfare at the time. Their foundry would have been the most advanced available foundry processes at the time had it launched as planned. From Feb 2013: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-altera-intel-manufacturing/intel-takes-big-step-in-chip-foundry-business-idUSBRE91O16G20130226 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-altera-intel-manufacturin...
  - scarface74 3y ago
    Actually I was referencing the MediaTek announcement https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/intel-foundry-services-announces-mediatek-as-first-wafer-customer/?sh=721b210f464a https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2022/08/10/inte...
Aromasin 3y ago
What on earth are you talking about? The article is discussing partnering with Arm using their 18A node. At 20A, Intel will be transitioning from its FinFET design over to a new type of transistor, known as a Gate-All-Around transistor, or GAAFET. In Intel’s case, the marketing name they are giving their version is RibbonFET. This is a technology that only started to come to a head in early 2020. The other arm of Intel’s 20A and onwards design is what the company is calling ‘PowerVia’. This is usually referred to as ‘backside power delivery’ in the industry. Although slightly older, we're still only talking about 2017 at the earliest. Intel has its 2nm node (called 20A, followed by 18A six months later) lined up for production to start in the first half of 2024, which compares to TSMC’s equivalent node (called N2) which is scheduled for the second half of 2025. 18A will be half a node denser than N2, while also being 12 months earlier to market. As to IFS as a concept, it's only recently been revamped in 2021 after a lackluster attempt in 2013 as you mentioned. So far they've announced partnerships with Arm, MediaTek, Qualcomm, AWS, and the DoD. That's a pretty heavy hitting pack, not including all of Tower Semiconductors customers. Intel wouldn't be building another 3 fabs if it wasn't serious this time about building capacity for other companies.
- fbn79 3y ago
  Interesting to know that "2nm" and "20A"(Armstrong) are just marketing names, they don't reflect physical sizes - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20term%20%222,6%5D%5B7%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process#:~:text=The%20ter...
  - gibspaulding 3y ago
    My understanding is that hasn't been the case for a long time now. Wikipedia is saying the last node actually measured by transistor length was from 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication#Technology_node https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrica...
  - smolder 3y ago
    Probably an autocorrect mishap, but in 20A the A is for angstrom.

lumb63 3y ago

This is huge. For one, it can decrease geopolitical risks for US-based firms. It also offers a chance to obtain higher-end silicon. Some companies can’t afford to use TSMC’s latest and greatest silicon because big companies have soaked up all the capacity. This offers an alternative route for them. Hopefully it will make the environment much more competitive.

galangalalgol 3y ago
Is anyone trying making IOT type devices in geopolitically stable places (in so far as there are any). Espressif seems like a pretty clear leader right now, but perhaps that is only from a hobbyists perspective? If bad things happened we would have bigger problems then wifi enabled toothbrushes, but it seems like a niche someone should make more robust and diverse.
- consp 3y ago
  Can't IoT devices be made on older fab's like the 32/40nm and up fab's available in for instance Germany (GloFo)? There are more of them in other more-or-less stable regions.
  - selectodude 3y ago
    Of course, but I imagine Intel's spare 14nm+++++++++++ capacity is pretty significant at the moment, which is best in class (non-TSMC division).
  - blackoil 3y ago
    Shouldn't IoT be most sensitive for power consumption?
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      Usually more sensitive to price I think? Many IOT devices plug into wall outlets. For those that don't, I would expect the wireless capability to dwarf the power consumption of the chip itself, but it seems like newer fabs would definitely be a good thing.

MangoCoffee 3y ago

more competition is better since Global Foundries drop out of 7nm and Samsung isn't doing any better.

dragonelite 3y ago

TSMC will be gobbled up by US and Chinese foundries. The talent will most likely go to Chinese fabs given they have access to a bigger customer base as more and more Chinese people get into middle income class. But not only that China might get better market access in BRICS and SCO nations which is a bigger block than the NATO and partners block. US fabs will mostly service NATO and partners nations, i don't see them being able to compete in the global south on price given Chinese infrastructure, living costs of labor and domestic market size advantages which can fuel the R&D of Chinese semi designer studios and fabs.