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what I'm saying there is that CSS Transitions aren't integrated into the normal hypermedia flow of HTML, which is what htmx tries to address we have never said

what I'm saying there is that CSS Transitions aren't integrated into the normal hypermedia flow of HTML, which is what htmx tries to address we have never said that SPAs are a crutch, our (really, my, there isn't much of a team and I don't speak for anyone else) claim is that SPAs are as popular as they are for advantages that are not inherent to them when compared to hypermedia, and htmx tries to narrow that gap i am sympathetic that people reading the various essays on the htmx website might get worn out by my repetitive beating on hypermedia, but consider that for every repeat reader, there are tens or hundreds of new readers who haven't heard much about or thought much about hypermedia. Repetition is a key to teaching, and I teach, so maybe that influences how I write as well. regarding abstraction and modularization being key to large front ends, I sort of agree to an extent, but I think that at the system level that abstraction can be hypermedia and that the modularization can be done server side of course it always depends on the app, htmx/hypermedia isn't right for everything, etc. etc. as we try to point out in an essay on our site: https://htmx.org/essays/when-to-use-hypermedia/ https://htmx.org/essays/when-to-use-hypermedia/ do I get a little punchy about SPAs at times? Sure, it's the internet after all. I've been fighting for the hypermedia-oriented approach for web development for a decade now, and I've been called "old", "irrelavent", "pointless" and "stupid" many times along the way by SPA fans. There is obviously some conflict between my views on web development and the larger front end world's perspective. But I try to be reasonably balanced about the tradeoffs, even while I think that the SPA approach is dramatically overused today.

0xParlay 4y ago
First of all congrats on creating a project that people want to use. I hope to one day join your ranks! First impressions from someone who's had a hand in many large scale consumer centric UI's. - I have a decent grasp on hypermedia as a concept. Not sure why I should care - The focus on hypermedia strikes me as dogmatic - it brings me back to the holy wars of gatekeeping "restfulness" - or the battle to strictly adhere to semantic web - Nooo, style classes can't be used in markup! that's what selectors are for and I'll literally die on this hill - In the middle of the restful holy wars at least everyone could agree allowing clients to query data was insanity. Insanity i say! - ok maybe graphql makes a little sense - The htmx value prop seems to be scattered - people who value "hypermedia" - devs who have "javascript fatigue" - based on sentiment I've seen users tend to be the latter - As far as the tech itself (again quick first impression) - i feel like the "api" is somewhat over-abstracted - seems like much of the functionality would be a jquery one-liner but with the syntactic sugar of using html - this pattern taken to the extreme reminds me of coldfusion markup and I don't mean that disparagingly! - jquery is popular bc the api strikes a great balance between over/under abstraction - syntactic sugar, effective primitives, plugins for the rest - to contrast htmx seems to emphasize high-level functionality On the ideological grounds of "semantic web" having logic and tags sprinkled thru the UI feels questionable and challenging from a unit testing perspective. - Given a code sample with the exact same syntax what benefit is there to template/interpolate on the server vs the client side? The downsides seem pretty big. Strings with "X time ago" become stale. More network round trips. Interpolated data has to be parsed to be queried locally, but I guess you could add another network request. Given the typical react/SSR setup I don't even have to think about server vs client side and benefit from both worlds. Anyways sorry for the ramble - I'll be following!

0xParlay 4y ago

First of all congrats on creating a project that people want to use. I hope to one day join your ranks! First impressions from someone who's had a hand in many large scale consumer centric UI's. - I have a decent grasp on hypermedia as a concept. Not sure why I should care - The focus on hypermedia strikes me as dogmatic - it brings me back to the holy wars of gatekeeping "restfulness" - or the battle to strictly adhere to semantic web - Nooo, style classes can't be used in markup! that's what selectors are for and I'll literally die on this hill - In the middle of the restful holy wars at least everyone could agree allowing clients to query data was insanity. Insanity i say! - ok maybe graphql makes a little sense - The htmx value prop seems to be scattered - people who value "hypermedia" - devs who have "javascript fatigue" - based on sentiment I've seen users tend to be the latter - As far as the tech itself (again quick first impression) - i feel like the "api" is somewhat over-abstracted - seems like much of the functionality would be a jquery one-liner but with the syntactic sugar of using html - this pattern taken to the extreme reminds me of coldfusion markup and I don't mean that disparagingly! - jquery is popular bc the api strikes a great balance between over/under abstraction - syntactic sugar, effective primitives, plugins for the rest - to contrast htmx seems to emphasize high-level functionality On the ideological grounds of "semantic web" having logic and tags sprinkled thru the UI feels questionable and challenging from a unit testing perspective. - Given a code sample with the exact same syntax what benefit is there to template/interpolate on the server vs the client side? The downsides seem pretty big. Strings with "X time ago" become stale. More network round trips. Interpolated data has to be parsed to be queried locally, but I guess you could add another network request. Given the typical react/SSR setup I don't even have to think about server vs client side and benefit from both worlds. Anyways sorry for the ramble - I'll be following!