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It is a strategy that is subject to being superceded very soon. Reliability is just one part of the problems with hybrids. Efficiency and cost are also less t

It is a strategy that is subject to being superceded very soon. Reliability is just one part of the problems with hybrids. Efficiency and cost are also less than optimal. A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance. There is no way around this. It is also a drag on efficiency --- for both long and short trips. On short trips, the electric power train has to drag around the ICE components. On a long trip, the ICE has to drag around the electric components. This strategy leaves the competition with a clear path to produce a lighter, more efficient, less expensive alternative. Any sort of battery breakthrough will kill this hybrid strategy. Rather than promoting or leading this breakthrough, Toyota is effectively betting against it --- primarily for cultural reasons rather than technological ones in my opinion.

pandaman 4y ago
ICE cars had an electric motor, a battery and an alternator since the earlier 20th century. Without those they were not very practical and required the driver to manually crank to start the engine. PHEV do not add a second power train, they just have a beefier electric system than a regular car and a charger.
moogly 4y ago
> A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance I won't argue against the maintenance, but pure BEV vehicles are still quite more expensive to buy than (P)HEVs.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. We are one battery breakthrough away from killing hybrid and ICE autos. Even more/better recharging stations might be enough to do it.
  - moogly 4y ago
    > Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Back to how they cost a few years ago? Also, I remember this: https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-promises-sub-30k-all-electric-car-in-le.html https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-p... > Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. I thought we were talking about right now, and not prognosticating about the future.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    no you're wrong. Tesla is cutting their prices because their margin is the highest and therefore they have fat to cut. I guarantee you the cheapest ICE will be cheaper than the cheapest BEV. Even right now the cheapest ICE is half the cost than the cheapest BEV. If you think BEV is going to go down half in cost in the next 5 years IDK what to say. even now, after price costs, a Model 3 is more expensive than nearly all PHEVs
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Be sure to include all the costs. An ICE costs $1000 extra per year just for fuel alone for the average driver.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        luckily the cheapest ICE saves you about $30K to begin with compared to a model 3. you could buy a Prius Prime and a used BEV cheaper than a new Model 3. Or a PHEV and save $15K or so compared to a Model 3. no matter how you think about it, BEV doesn't really make sense.
        jqpabc123 4y ago
        you could buy a Prius Prime and a used BEV cheaper than a new Model 3. A new Prius Prime is roughly $30K The cheapest Model 3 is now about $43K --- and it comes with a $7500 rebate. A Chevy Bolt EV is about $27.5K.
endisneigh 4y ago
> Efficiency and cost are also less than optimal. Based on what? A Kiro Niro PHEV is cheaper than a Kiro Niro BEV. https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-ev https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-ev The same trend exists for all other cars that have both PHEV and BEV models. > On short trips, the electric power train has to drag around the ICE components. On a long trip, the ICE has to drag around the electric components. The same could be said about BEV and the extra weight, amounting to hundreds of unnecessary pounds being towed, which by the way weighs more than ICE components than a PHEV. (in the case of the Kiro Niro, the plug-in hybrid components add 250 pounds compared to ICE, and the Niro BEV adds a whopping 700 pounds extra compared to ICE. In other words, the BEV differential from PHEV adds more than from ICE to PHEV). The amount of FUD surrounding PHEV every time it's mentioned really is amazing.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Based on what? A Kiro Niro PHEV is cheaper than a Kiro Niro BEV. Based on the simple fact that battery costs are rapidly trending downward as production ramps up --- while ICE components are not following a similar trend.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    you can't see a trend and extrapolate it indefinitely, smh. not to mention any magical battery price reduction would also apply to PHEV.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Battery price reductions aren't magic, they are as inevitable as any other advancing technology. "Magic" is assuming that the added complexity of a dual power train will always be cheaper.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        ok then. I look forward to the $15K brand new electric cars in 5 years (per your other comment), lol. I've saved your comment here. it'll be nice for a laugh in 2028.

pandaman 4y ago

ICE cars had an electric motor, a battery and an alternator since the earlier 20th century. Without those they were not very practical and required the driver to manually crank to start the engine. PHEV do not add a second power train, they just have a beefier electric system than a regular car and a charger.

moogly 4y ago

> A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance I won't argue against the maintenance, but pure BEV vehicles are still quite more expensive to buy than (P)HEVs.

jqpabc123 4y ago
Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. We are one battery breakthrough away from killing hybrid and ICE autos. Even more/better recharging stations might be enough to do it.
- moogly 4y ago
  > Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Back to how they cost a few years ago? Also, I remember this: https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-promises-sub-30k-all-electric-car-in-le.html https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-p... > Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. I thought we were talking about right now, and not prognosticating about the future.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  no you're wrong. Tesla is cutting their prices because their margin is the highest and therefore they have fat to cut. I guarantee you the cheapest ICE will be cheaper than the cheapest BEV. Even right now the cheapest ICE is half the cost than the cheapest BEV. If you think BEV is going to go down half in cost in the next 5 years IDK what to say. even now, after price costs, a Model 3 is more expensive than nearly all PHEVs
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Be sure to include all the costs. An ICE costs $1000 extra per year just for fuel alone for the average driver.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      luckily the cheapest ICE saves you about $30K to begin with compared to a model 3. you could buy a Prius Prime and a used BEV cheaper than a new Model 3. Or a PHEV and save $15K or so compared to a Model 3. no matter how you think about it, BEV doesn't really make sense.
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        you could buy a Prius Prime and a used BEV cheaper than a new Model 3. A new Prius Prime is roughly $30K The cheapest Model 3 is now about $43K --- and it comes with a $7500 rebate. A Chevy Bolt EV is about $27.5K.

endisneigh 4y ago

> Efficiency and cost are also less than optimal. Based on what? A Kiro Niro PHEV is cheaper than a Kiro Niro BEV. https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-ev https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-ev The same trend exists for all other cars that have both PHEV and BEV models. > On short trips, the electric power train has to drag around the ICE components. On a long trip, the ICE has to drag around the electric components. The same could be said about BEV and the extra weight, amounting to hundreds of unnecessary pounds being towed, which by the way weighs more than ICE components than a PHEV. (in the case of the Kiro Niro, the plug-in hybrid components add 250 pounds compared to ICE, and the Niro BEV adds a whopping 700 pounds extra compared to ICE. In other words, the BEV differential from PHEV adds more than from ICE to PHEV). The amount of FUD surrounding PHEV every time it's mentioned really is amazing.

jqpabc123 4y ago
Based on what? A Kiro Niro PHEV is cheaper than a Kiro Niro BEV. Based on the simple fact that battery costs are rapidly trending downward as production ramps up --- while ICE components are not following a similar trend.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  you can't see a trend and extrapolate it indefinitely, smh. not to mention any magical battery price reduction would also apply to PHEV.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Battery price reductions aren't magic, they are as inevitable as any other advancing technology. "Magic" is assuming that the added complexity of a dual power train will always be cheaper.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      ok then. I look forward to the $15K brand new electric cars in 5 years (per your other comment), lol. I've saved your comment here. it'll be nice for a laugh in 2028.