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I think this is the right strategy. People lamenting the extra gas engine components and their maintenance must not be familiar with the reliability of a modern

I think this is the right strategy. People lamenting the extra gas engine components and their maintenance must not be familiar with the reliability of a modern (ICE) vehicle.

brk 4y ago
You're probably right about them not being aware of the reliability of ICE engines. But I don't see anyone mentioning how the ethanol-mix fuel, which is nearly unavoidable, can turn to shit in a few months of sitting and cause all kinds of engine issues. I'd be more worried about fuel issues over the long term if these truly become "a couple times a year" use cases. Ethanol fuel needs to be banned, IMO.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  There are stabilizing fluids you can add that extends the life to years. If owners can’t be bothered to do that the car could be programmed to use fuel every 6 months to prevent the negative side effects (in the case of cars like the Pacifica PHEV and Prius Prime, this is what happens) The fuel issue is simply FUD. I’d be more concerned about BEV and range anxiety honestly. In Maine, for example, some Tesla owners reported the range being cut in half, during the winter. Simply unacceptable.
  - bsagdiyev 4y ago
    There are also, depending on the state, still gas stations that sell ethanol free fuel. The station up the street from me sells it but it is about 20 to 30 cents per gallon more expensive.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      I tend to get about 5% more mpg when I use ethanol free so for me so it offsets that additional cost a bit.
jqpabc123 4y ago
It is a strategy that is subject to being superceded very soon. Reliability is just one part of the problems with hybrids. Efficiency and cost are also less than optimal. A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance. There is no way around this. It is also a drag on efficiency --- for both long and short trips. On short trips, the electric power train has to drag around the ICE components. On a long trip, the ICE has to drag around the electric components. This strategy leaves the competition with a clear path to produce a lighter, more efficient, less expensive alternative. Any sort of battery breakthrough will kill this hybrid strategy. Rather than promoting or leading this breakthrough, Toyota is effectively betting against it --- primarily for cultural reasons rather than technological ones in my opinion.
- pandaman 4y ago
  ICE cars had an electric motor, a battery and an alternator since the earlier 20th century. Without those they were not very practical and required the driver to manually crank to start the engine. PHEV do not add a second power train, they just have a beefier electric system than a regular car and a charger.
- moogly 4y ago
  > A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance I won't argue against the maintenance, but pure BEV vehicles are still quite more expensive to buy than (P)HEVs.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. We are one battery breakthrough away from killing hybrid and ICE autos. Even more/better recharging stations might be enough to do it.
    - moogly 4y ago
      > Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Back to how they cost a few years ago? Also, I remember this: https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-promises-sub-30k-all-electric-car-in-le.html https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-p... > Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. I thought we were talking about right now, and not prognosticating about the future.

I think this is the right strategy. People lamenting the extra gas engine components and their maintenance must not be familiar with the reliability of a modern (ICE) vehicle.

brk 4y ago

You're probably right about them not being aware of the reliability of ICE engines. But I don't see anyone mentioning how the ethanol-mix fuel, which is nearly unavoidable, can turn to shit in a few months of sitting and cause all kinds of engine issues. I'd be more worried about fuel issues over the long term if these truly become "a couple times a year" use cases. Ethanol fuel needs to be banned, IMO.

endisneigh 4y ago
There are stabilizing fluids you can add that extends the life to years. If owners can’t be bothered to do that the car could be programmed to use fuel every 6 months to prevent the negative side effects (in the case of cars like the Pacifica PHEV and Prius Prime, this is what happens) The fuel issue is simply FUD. I’d be more concerned about BEV and range anxiety honestly. In Maine, for example, some Tesla owners reported the range being cut in half, during the winter. Simply unacceptable.
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  There are also, depending on the state, still gas stations that sell ethanol free fuel. The station up the street from me sells it but it is about 20 to 30 cents per gallon more expensive.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    I tend to get about 5% more mpg when I use ethanol free so for me so it offsets that additional cost a bit.

jqpabc123 4y ago

It is a strategy that is subject to being superceded very soon. Reliability is just one part of the problems with hybrids. Efficiency and cost are also less than optimal. A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance. There is no way around this. It is also a drag on efficiency --- for both long and short trips. On short trips, the electric power train has to drag around the ICE components. On a long trip, the ICE has to drag around the electric components. This strategy leaves the competition with a clear path to produce a lighter, more efficient, less expensive alternative. Any sort of battery breakthrough will kill this hybrid strategy. Rather than promoting or leading this breakthrough, Toyota is effectively betting against it --- primarily for cultural reasons rather than technological ones in my opinion.

pandaman 4y ago
ICE cars had an electric motor, a battery and an alternator since the earlier 20th century. Without those they were not very practical and required the driver to manually crank to start the engine. PHEV do not add a second power train, they just have a beefier electric system than a regular car and a charger.
moogly 4y ago
> A dual power train just costs more --- both initially and in terms of maintenance I won't argue against the maintenance, but pure BEV vehicles are still quite more expensive to buy than (P)HEVs.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. We are one battery breakthrough away from killing hybrid and ICE autos. Even more/better recharging stations might be enough to do it.
  - moogly 4y ago
    > Notice how Tesla is cutting their prices. Back to how they cost a few years ago? Also, I remember this: https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-promises-sub-30k-all-electric-car-in-le.html https://www.engadget.com/2008-06-30-tesla-motors-elon-musk-p... > Battery cost is declining at a double digit rate per year as production ramps up. Within the next 5 years, BEV will be cheaper. I thought we were talking about right now, and not prognosticating about the future.