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Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do no

Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil. (Matthew 5:33-37)

courseofaction 3y ago
https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill It is utterly forbidden to kill in the bible. 200 years after Christ, the Roman army was "Christian". Hmm.
- hereme888 3y ago
  That's not true. What is forbidden is murder.
- hajile 3y ago
  Hebrew has two words for killing. One implies a guilty mind and the other does not. Ask a Hebrew scholar and they'll tell you that the word used for "murder" doesn't include things like military service or capital punishment. And of course, any other interpretation would be at odds with what actually happens in the rest of the Bible.
  - courseofaction 3y ago
    Very interesting, thank you.
echelon 3y ago
My brain literally locks up when I read King James-style English. I wonder if AI can discover patterns in language or other signal domains that totally disrupt the modern brain and cause humans to crash. Biblical passages nearly do that to me, so I think that they must exist.
- timbit42 3y ago
  The English in today's King James Bibles isn't even King James' English. It was originally written in King James' English in 1611 but was updated in 1769: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Standard_text_of_1769 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Standard_te... From Wikipedia: "The 1611 and 1769 texts of the first three verses from I Corinthians 13 are given below. [1611] 1. Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I haue the gift of prophesie, and vnderstand all mysteries and all knowledge: and though I haue all faith, so that I could remooue mountaines, and haue no charitie, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestowe all my goods to feede the poore, and though I giue my body to bee burned, and haue not charitie, it profiteth me nothing. [1769] 1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." The ESV (English Standard Version) is considered the modern equivalent. [2016] 1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
  - Technotroll 3y ago
    Cool, so it ought to be Early Modern English akin to the language of Shakespeare then?
- shaftoe444 3y ago
  That's not King James that's a more modern translation. KJV: Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
pedrogpimenta 3y ago
So, is the Bible saying you shouldn't swear oath on a Bible?
- seanhunter 3y ago
  That passage says you shouldn't take an oath at all, and then gives specific examples. It doesn't say "on a Bible" because the Bible was not compiled until later.
jbaber 3y ago
This is why I'm perpetually confused by the official swearing of oaths by practicing Christians. There aren't a lot of new rules in the New Testament, but this is one of them. Am I misinterpreting the passage?
- scotty79 3y ago
  Christianity is infinitely moldable to what people in power want it to be. Every rule can be ignored, every rule can be created. That's how it's spread all over the globe at rapid pace.
- hereme888 3y ago
  Christian here. You are not misinterpreting. You are correct. In all religions unfortunately people develop traditions and beliefs that are even contrary to the text, and leaders are not good at correcting it. Swearing by the Bible is a contradiction. But swearing by the Old Testament alone is not a contradiction.
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  No Christian can obey all the statutes of the Bible, or else they'll have to withdraw from modern life. The book is contradictory anyways...another part says obey the laws and regulations of the land. So, if the law says you must swear in, what then? Was raised Christian (no longer one) and even attended a Christian college where we took an oath to be diligent, hard-working students...somebody better not check my transcript because I did the exact opposite.
  - eternalban 3y ago
    non-Christian reader of Jesus son of Mary here. He is simply saying that your outward promises must be a simple reflection of your internal resolve. "simple yes or no". And dressing it up either as being based on divine attribures or your given nature is a form of deception, self-deception or otherwise. "anything more than this comes from evil" Which is basically true. You know your internal position. It is either yes or no on 'promise x'. Why dress it up? > No Christian can obey all the statutes of the Bible Love God with all your heart and all your mind, and love your neighbor even as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on this. That's the meta "statue". It's basically the foundation of a subset of human religions, certainly the Abrahamic ones. Most struggle with loving ourselves, our fellow bipeds, or our God, or some combo but the clue is the implication that they are all one and the same. ["even"] It is really core to the entire matter. Love in the fullness of its meaning.
rainworld 3y ago
Guess what, this conundrum did come up in 2000 years of Catholic teaching: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-are-oaths-allowed https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-are-oaths-allowed
- lelandfe 3y ago
  This is like, “well, there are other passages that conflict with that, so maybe just do it when it’s appropriate”
  - scotty79 3y ago
    > maybe just do it when it’s appropriate when we want you to
    - jenadine 3y ago
      The bible is full of contradictions and provably false statements. Then some believer just cherry pick the ones they want to believe in.

courseofaction 3y ago

https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill It is utterly forbidden to kill in the bible. 200 years after Christ, the Roman army was "Christian". Hmm.

hereme888 3y ago
That's not true. What is forbidden is murder.
hajile 3y ago
Hebrew has two words for killing. One implies a guilty mind and the other does not. Ask a Hebrew scholar and they'll tell you that the word used for "murder" doesn't include things like military service or capital punishment. And of course, any other interpretation would be at odds with what actually happens in the rest of the Bible.
- courseofaction 3y ago
  Very interesting, thank you.

echelon 3y ago

My brain literally locks up when I read King James-style English. I wonder if AI can discover patterns in language or other signal domains that totally disrupt the modern brain and cause humans to crash. Biblical passages nearly do that to me, so I think that they must exist.

timbit42 3y ago
The English in today's King James Bibles isn't even King James' English. It was originally written in King James' English in 1611 but was updated in 1769: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Standard_text_of_1769 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Standard_te... From Wikipedia: "The 1611 and 1769 texts of the first three verses from I Corinthians 13 are given below. [1611] 1. Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I haue the gift of prophesie, and vnderstand all mysteries and all knowledge: and though I haue all faith, so that I could remooue mountaines, and haue no charitie, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestowe all my goods to feede the poore, and though I giue my body to bee burned, and haue not charitie, it profiteth me nothing. [1769] 1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." The ESV (English Standard Version) is considered the modern equivalent. [2016] 1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
- Technotroll 3y ago
  Cool, so it ought to be Early Modern English akin to the language of Shakespeare then?
shaftoe444 3y ago
That's not King James that's a more modern translation. KJV: Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

pedrogpimenta 3y ago

So, is the Bible saying you shouldn't swear oath on a Bible?

seanhunter 3y ago
That passage says you shouldn't take an oath at all, and then gives specific examples. It doesn't say "on a Bible" because the Bible was not compiled until later.

jbaber 3y ago

This is why I'm perpetually confused by the official swearing of oaths by practicing Christians. There aren't a lot of new rules in the New Testament, but this is one of them. Am I misinterpreting the passage?

scotty79 3y ago
Christianity is infinitely moldable to what people in power want it to be. Every rule can be ignored, every rule can be created. That's how it's spread all over the globe at rapid pace.
hereme888 3y ago
Christian here. You are not misinterpreting. You are correct. In all religions unfortunately people develop traditions and beliefs that are even contrary to the text, and leaders are not good at correcting it. Swearing by the Bible is a contradiction. But swearing by the Old Testament alone is not a contradiction.
boeingUH60 3y ago
No Christian can obey all the statutes of the Bible, or else they'll have to withdraw from modern life. The book is contradictory anyways...another part says obey the laws and regulations of the land. So, if the law says you must swear in, what then? Was raised Christian (no longer one) and even attended a Christian college where we took an oath to be diligent, hard-working students...somebody better not check my transcript because I did the exact opposite.
- eternalban 3y ago
  non-Christian reader of Jesus son of Mary here. He is simply saying that your outward promises must be a simple reflection of your internal resolve. "simple yes or no". And dressing it up either as being based on divine attribures or your given nature is a form of deception, self-deception or otherwise. "anything more than this comes from evil" Which is basically true. You know your internal position. It is either yes or no on 'promise x'. Why dress it up? > No Christian can obey all the statutes of the Bible Love God with all your heart and all your mind, and love your neighbor even as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on this. That's the meta "statue". It's basically the foundation of a subset of human religions, certainly the Abrahamic ones. Most struggle with loving ourselves, our fellow bipeds, or our God, or some combo but the clue is the implication that they are all one and the same. ["even"] It is really core to the entire matter. Love in the fullness of its meaning.

rainworld 3y ago

Guess what, this conundrum did come up in 2000 years of Catholic teaching: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-are-oaths-allowed https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-are-oaths-allowed

lelandfe 3y ago
This is like, “well, there are other passages that conflict with that, so maybe just do it when it’s appropriate”
- scotty79 3y ago
  > maybe just do it when it’s appropriate when we want you to
  - jenadine 3y ago
    The bible is full of contradictions and provably false statements. Then some believer just cherry pick the ones they want to believe in.