4 ms·

> many BEVs’ batteries aren't used to their full potential very often. This means BEV drivers lug around redundant capacity and weight, And hauling around a wh

by yardie 4y ago

> many BEVs’ batteries aren't used to their full potential very often. This means BEV drivers lug around redundant capacity and weight, And hauling around a whole ass ICE, fuel tank, cooling system, emissions and exhaust is better and also not a waste. Countries are pushing their emission standards down to 0. Where does even a tiny gas engine fit in that scenario?

egil 4y ago
Not to mention the required maintenance of said parts.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Modern ICE components don’t really require that much maintenance these days
  - yardie 4y ago
    You want to tell that to the Advanced Auto Parts, Pep Boys, Autozones of the world? That their business model in a few years is going to be rotating/changing tires and topping off wiper fluids? ICE cars (including modern ones) require so much maintenance they have entire franchises dedicated to the maintenance of those cars.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      What percentage of cars on the road are brand new? You think BEV don't need brakes and rotors or have mechanical issues?
      - yardie 4y ago
        BEVs almost never need new brakes. Regenerative braking means you rarely use the brake. There are only two times the actual physical brakes are applied: high speed deceleration and parking. And if you're doing the former that frequently you are a menace. Mechanical issues are not maintenance. The drive train on a EV is so simple that manufacturers have to invent new tools and procedures. EV techs are more likely to have an electrician or computer background than a auto mechanic background.
        TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        > BEVs almost never need new brakes. Prius owners would like to have a talk. Their brakes got rusted and seized because they were using regen braking instead. All BEVs using brake discs will have this problem. Also the reason why VW used drum brakes in their ID.3
        endisneigh 4y ago
        your comments on the brakes are just straight up false.
        yardie 4y ago
        Which part is false? Tell that to shitty, billionaire internet troll: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1078010341651492865 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1078010341651492865
        endisneigh 4y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nfw6ls/break_pads_and_rotors_replacement_within_2_years/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nfw6ls/break_p... why say things that are so easily falsifiable?
viraptor 4y ago
It could be useful for people who will basically never need gas, but are too scared to make a full switch and are happy to pay extra for the complexity. In that scenario would you rather see someone to hold on to their car running on gas until it dies, or get one where they use the gas once a year?
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  > It could be useful for people who will basically never need gas, but are too scared to make a full switch and are happy to pay extra for the complexity. No. Hybrids at this point serve the purpose of not killing the Auto industry with regulations. You have a whole industry of designers and suppliers for ICE tech both on gasoline and diesel designs. The original intent in many countries is that no ICEs should be produced (outside farming etc.) after 2030s. Automakers cried out and now suddenly hybrids are on the table as 'not-ICEs'. Sure it's an in between solution but we no longer have the luxury of time to be accommodating lobbies.
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    > Hybrids at this point serve the purpose of […] … who have neither have a garage, nor even a parking pad, at home and have to park on the street, and may not have convenient charging infrastructure.
buran77 4y ago
In theory you are correct but the extra ICE parts are for people for whom EVs don't cut it (too expensive, no proper charging infrastructure, usage pattern, etc.). This is actually a vast chunk of the world's population. So if you can't consistently go electric a PHEV is a good mix. But on the topic of hauling, I can detect some bigotry in the complains about some people needlessly hauling the ICE parts of a PHEV when most drivers are needlessly hauling an entire car for something a bike and public transport do just fine. The environmental difference between EV and bikes is far, far larger than between EV and PHEV. So maybe let's just agree that some changes can't or won't happen in a single step and some intermediate, less than ideal positions are needed. Complaining about everyone who doesn't fit exactly our model of needs, likes and capabilities is usually just virtue signaling.
- yardie 4y ago
  The vast majority of the world don’t need a car at all. My problem isn’t with the the transition vehicles like PHEV. It’s the fact that Toyota doesn’t seem to have any strategy at all. None of the Japanese car mfgs have a ZEV strategy and 2030 is a lot closer now than it was in 2020. They won’t be able to sell their cars in China in a few years. The largest, fastest growing market right now. Where do you think they’ll be in 5 years?
  - buran77 4y ago
    Looks to me like right now they chose the best (least bad?) strategy one could choose in their position of being late to the party. They focus on a way to spread the thin supply of batteries they have while covering as big a part of the market as they can, and at the same time still letting the investments they made in ICE bring some returns. They also target a segment that's mostly an afterthought for other manufacturers. On paper they could go all in on EVs but they'd make a pitiful number while competing with the big players who have a lot more room to maneuver with their margins. A PHEV with 200km electric range might as well be a full EV 90% of the time but being able to cover the other 10% (every other condition and anxiety) is enough to win more people over. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
endisneigh 4y ago
this FUD is so annoying. go look it up, it requires less weight to convert ICE to PHEV than PHEV to BEV. In other words, BEV is actually the one lugging around redundant capacity. The Kiro Niro illustrates this fact perfectly as one of the few vehicles that has both an ICE, PHEV and BEV variant. add to the fact that most miles driven for most people are within the range of PHEV electric range, BEV makes literally no sense.
surgical_fire 4y ago
I have one of those hybrid models because the place I live in has a shitty EV charging infrastructure. And I live in an apartment building. Not living in a single family home makes EVs more cumbersome to have. That said, love my hybrid. Very economical, I manage to run on EV quite often, don't need to refuel so much. Much more practical than EVs, especially considering I mostly drive in the city. Almost never drive on the highway. But I swear, the petulance of EV fans online is sometimes so infuriating, that it almost makes me want to buy a Diesel generator and leave it running to throw some extra carbon on the atmosphere just out of spite.
- tr_user 4y ago
  You live on the same planet. If you want to spite the EV fan, go punch one. Why spite the rest of us?

by yardie 4y ago

egil 4y ago

Not to mention the required maintenance of said parts.

endisneigh 4y ago
Modern ICE components don’t really require that much maintenance these days
- yardie 4y ago
  You want to tell that to the Advanced Auto Parts, Pep Boys, Autozones of the world? That their business model in a few years is going to be rotating/changing tires and topping off wiper fluids? ICE cars (including modern ones) require so much maintenance they have entire franchises dedicated to the maintenance of those cars.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    What percentage of cars on the road are brand new? You think BEV don't need brakes and rotors or have mechanical issues?
    - yardie 4y ago
      BEVs almost never need new brakes. Regenerative braking means you rarely use the brake. There are only two times the actual physical brakes are applied: high speed deceleration and parking. And if you're doing the former that frequently you are a menace. Mechanical issues are not maintenance. The drive train on a EV is so simple that manufacturers have to invent new tools and procedures. EV techs are more likely to have an electrician or computer background than a auto mechanic background.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        > BEVs almost never need new brakes. Prius owners would like to have a talk. Their brakes got rusted and seized because they were using regen braking instead. All BEVs using brake discs will have this problem. Also the reason why VW used drum brakes in their ID.3
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        your comments on the brakes are just straight up false.
        yardie 4y ago
        Which part is false? Tell that to shitty, billionaire internet troll: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1078010341651492865 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1078010341651492865
        endisneigh 4y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nfw6ls/break_pads_and_rotors_replacement_within_2_years/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nfw6ls/break_p... why say things that are so easily falsifiable?

viraptor 4y ago

It could be useful for people who will basically never need gas, but are too scared to make a full switch and are happy to pay extra for the complexity. In that scenario would you rather see someone to hold on to their car running on gas until it dies, or get one where they use the gas once a year?

DoingIsLearning 4y ago
> It could be useful for people who will basically never need gas, but are too scared to make a full switch and are happy to pay extra for the complexity. No. Hybrids at this point serve the purpose of not killing the Auto industry with regulations. You have a whole industry of designers and suppliers for ICE tech both on gasoline and diesel designs. The original intent in many countries is that no ICEs should be produced (outside farming etc.) after 2030s. Automakers cried out and now suddenly hybrids are on the table as 'not-ICEs'. Sure it's an in between solution but we no longer have the luxury of time to be accommodating lobbies.
- throw0101c 4y ago
  > Hybrids at this point serve the purpose of […] … who have neither have a garage, nor even a parking pad, at home and have to park on the street, and may not have convenient charging infrastructure.

buran77 4y ago

In theory you are correct but the extra ICE parts are for people for whom EVs don't cut it (too expensive, no proper charging infrastructure, usage pattern, etc.). This is actually a vast chunk of the world's population. So if you can't consistently go electric a PHEV is a good mix. But on the topic of hauling, I can detect some bigotry in the complains about some people needlessly hauling the ICE parts of a PHEV when most drivers are needlessly hauling an entire car for something a bike and public transport do just fine. The environmental difference between EV and bikes is far, far larger than between EV and PHEV. So maybe let's just agree that some changes can't or won't happen in a single step and some intermediate, less than ideal positions are needed. Complaining about everyone who doesn't fit exactly our model of needs, likes and capabilities is usually just virtue signaling.

yardie 4y ago
The vast majority of the world don’t need a car at all. My problem isn’t with the the transition vehicles like PHEV. It’s the fact that Toyota doesn’t seem to have any strategy at all. None of the Japanese car mfgs have a ZEV strategy and 2030 is a lot closer now than it was in 2020. They won’t be able to sell their cars in China in a few years. The largest, fastest growing market right now. Where do you think they’ll be in 5 years?
- buran77 4y ago
  Looks to me like right now they chose the best (least bad?) strategy one could choose in their position of being late to the party. They focus on a way to spread the thin supply of batteries they have while covering as big a part of the market as they can, and at the same time still letting the investments they made in ICE bring some returns. They also target a segment that's mostly an afterthought for other manufacturers. On paper they could go all in on EVs but they'd make a pitiful number while competing with the big players who have a lot more room to maneuver with their margins. A PHEV with 200km electric range might as well be a full EV 90% of the time but being able to cover the other 10% (every other condition and anxiety) is enough to win more people over. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

endisneigh 4y ago

this FUD is so annoying. go look it up, it requires less weight to convert ICE to PHEV than PHEV to BEV. In other words, BEV is actually the one lugging around redundant capacity. The Kiro Niro illustrates this fact perfectly as one of the few vehicles that has both an ICE, PHEV and BEV variant. add to the fact that most miles driven for most people are within the range of PHEV electric range, BEV makes literally no sense.

surgical_fire 4y ago

I have one of those hybrid models because the place I live in has a shitty EV charging infrastructure. And I live in an apartment building. Not living in a single family home makes EVs more cumbersome to have. That said, love my hybrid. Very economical, I manage to run on EV quite often, don't need to refuel so much. Much more practical than EVs, especially considering I mostly drive in the city. Almost never drive on the highway. But I swear, the petulance of EV fans online is sometimes so infuriating, that it almost makes me want to buy a Diesel generator and leave it running to throw some extra carbon on the atmosphere just out of spite.

tr_user 4y ago
You live on the same planet. If you want to spite the EV fan, go punch one. Why spite the rest of us?