4 ms·

Well Lotus had email at one point. But before it did, Unix sendmail!

skissane 4y ago
WordPerfect had email too. Novell bought GroupWise from WordPerfect. Before the Novell acquisition, it was called WordPerfect Office, and before that WordPerfect Library. It was available for DOS, Windows, Mac, UNIX (SCO Xenix, AT&T 3B2, NCR TOWER), OS/2, VAX/VMS, and Data General minicomputers. Confusingly, Corel now sells "WordPerfect Office" which is nothing to do with the original WordPerfect Office. The current "WordPerfect Office" is an office suite composed of WordPerfect (word processor), Quattro Pro (spreadsheet, acquired from Borland), and a few other apps. The original "WordPerfect Office" was not an office suite, it was a groupware suite, with email, calendaring, document management, etc. And GroupWise is still around, but now called Micro Focus GroupWise, since Attachmate bought Novell and then Micro Focus bought Attachmate. And more recently, Micro Focus has been bought by OpenText. I wonder how many people still use it though. I remember when everybody was jumping ship from GroupWise – 15+ years ago. If everyone was abandoning something 15 years ago, who is left today? Addendum: Someone on Reddit claims [0] there is only one large GroupWise customer remaining – US Federal Bureau of Prisons. If true, makes sense – where else but some government agency would something like this survive? [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/tlwvsd/anyone_else_still_using_groupwise/i1w237q/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/tlwvsd/anyone_els...
- themadturk 4y ago
  Groupwise was considered a miracle at a law firm I worked for in the 1990s. We managed to link three offices together, the main office dialing up each of the branches once an hour to exchange email and documents over 9600k modems.
- jll29 4y ago
  > Someone on Reddit claims [0] there is only one large GroupWise customer remaining – US Federal Bureau of Prisons. You mean they have a case of vendor lock-in?
  - skissane 4y ago
    I really doubt that vendor lock-in is the reason in their case. Heaps of other organisations - including many not particularly competent public sector ones - managed to do it. Back when everyone was doing it (15-20 years ago), there was a whole cottage industry of consulting firms specialising in Novell-to-Microsoft migrations. So long as you were willing to spend sufficient $$$, and had sufficient executive buy-in, you really couldn’t go wrong. I suspect in their case the real answer must be either (1) unwilling to spend enough to successfully pull it off; or (2) never made it a priority at a sufficiently senior level (or both) Lotus Notes came with a comprehensive development environment for custom applications - much easier to get locked-in there. GroupWise was much more spartan in its feature set, just email and calendar. It had an API but few customers ever wrote code against it - it was primarily used by third-party vendors for integration with document management systems, anti-spam/anti-virus, email archival, eDiscovery, identity management, etc - back in the day, most of the big enterprise offerings in those spaces had plugins for GroupWise. But sooner or later they almost all had plugins for Exchange too - so very rarely would that be a blocker on migrating GroupWise to Exchange And being hooked on Microsoft might not be the best place to be-but still better than stranded on a dying platform. At least Microsoft has a clear roadmap to move to cloud (if that’s what you want to do), By the time cloud became a thing, GroupWise’s remaining install base was too small to support that
    - JSR_FDED 4y ago
      Great answer for what was likely just a pun on “lock-in” :-)
      - skissane 4y ago
        I get it now. I'm somewhat pun-impaired. An autistic trait.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  > If everyone was abandoning something 15 years ago, who is left today? Those that were and are still afraid of such a migration I guess. I remember using groupwise in the early 2000's at work, it didn't felt much worse than the outlook/exchange and Lotus Notes I have been using later. I think the one particularly worse was Lotus Notes. I think it received some instant messaging just after I left that company but most teams were using rogue jabber/xmpp servers everywhere even on companies that provided Microsoft Lync because the xmpp clients were superior,the experience more reliable and people didn't want to be spied by their bosses/HR teams. It is funny how people have surrendered in most places while nothing prevent them technically to discuss on other instant messaging platforms. Had I been the one tasked to be admin it may have been quite different. I have no idea about groupwise but I remember Lotus Notes admins had some headaches (but they weren't especially smart or knowledgeable people so it may just be that team and not the product). Besides I don't think that email and calendaring are technologies where a particular product makes a huge difference. We don't send and receive emails, manage contacts or schedule meetings much differently than 20y ago. The Outlook/exchange combo is popular because of microsoft enterprise licenses and its integration with active directory (and now Azure). It is really Active Directory that is the product that tightly bind every Microsoft Product together and make them so ubiquitous and competitive against alternatives. I don't know how much Micro Focus sell its solution vs on premise exchange + outlook clients licensing and or office 365 (remember that some company still don't want to go cloud).
  - toast0 4y ago
    > Besides I don't think that email and calendaring are technologies where a particular product makes a huge difference. It might not be a huge difference, but slower email clients like Outlook and even GMail these days, increase the overhead of communications and make communication less likely. Maybe it's me, but when corporate email is fast, I'll at least open each mail for a quick scan once a day. When corporate email is slow, I'm only going to maybe scan titles. Also, if Outlook still does things like drain my battery to death if I forget to quit before sleeping, and not work without a restart after a brief sleep with a network change, long startup time means it's unlikely to get started at all. Once that's common, corporate email is no longer a reliable communications method, and that's not great. I could rant about email products that hide email addresses, as if nobody ever worked with two people with the same first name and last name before, or as if spams and scams didn't routinely use good sounding names when they send from someone's unintentional web to email gateway.

WordPerfect had email too. Novell bought GroupWise from WordPerfect. Before the Novell acquisition, it was called WordPerfect Office, and before that WordPerfect Library. It was available for DOS, Windows, Mac, UNIX (SCO Xenix, AT&T 3B2, NCR TOWER), OS/2, VAX/VMS, and Data General minicomputers. Confusingly, Corel now sells "WordPerfect Office" which is nothing to do with the original WordPerfect Office. The current "WordPerfect Office" is an office suite composed of WordPerfect (word processor), Quattro Pro (spreadsheet, acquired from Borland), and a few other apps. The original "WordPerfect Office" was not an office suite, it was a groupware suite, with email, calendaring, document management, etc. And GroupWise is still around, but now called Micro Focus GroupWise, since Attachmate bought Novell and then Micro Focus bought Attachmate. And more recently, Micro Focus has been bought by OpenText. I wonder how many people still use it though. I remember when everybody was jumping ship from GroupWise – 15+ years ago. If everyone was abandoning something 15 years ago, who is left today? Addendum: Someone on Reddit claims [0] there is only one large GroupWise customer remaining – US Federal Bureau of Prisons. If true, makes sense – where else but some government agency would something like this survive? [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/tlwvsd/anyone_else_still_using_groupwise/i1w237q/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/tlwvsd/anyone_els...

themadturk 4y ago
Groupwise was considered a miracle at a law firm I worked for in the 1990s. We managed to link three offices together, the main office dialing up each of the branches once an hour to exchange email and documents over 9600k modems.
jll29 4y ago
> Someone on Reddit claims [0] there is only one large GroupWise customer remaining – US Federal Bureau of Prisons. You mean they have a case of vendor lock-in?
- skissane 4y ago
  I really doubt that vendor lock-in is the reason in their case. Heaps of other organisations - including many not particularly competent public sector ones - managed to do it. Back when everyone was doing it (15-20 years ago), there was a whole cottage industry of consulting firms specialising in Novell-to-Microsoft migrations. So long as you were willing to spend sufficient $$$, and had sufficient executive buy-in, you really couldn’t go wrong. I suspect in their case the real answer must be either (1) unwilling to spend enough to successfully pull it off; or (2) never made it a priority at a sufficiently senior level (or both) Lotus Notes came with a comprehensive development environment for custom applications - much easier to get locked-in there. GroupWise was much more spartan in its feature set, just email and calendar. It had an API but few customers ever wrote code against it - it was primarily used by third-party vendors for integration with document management systems, anti-spam/anti-virus, email archival, eDiscovery, identity management, etc - back in the day, most of the big enterprise offerings in those spaces had plugins for GroupWise. But sooner or later they almost all had plugins for Exchange too - so very rarely would that be a blocker on migrating GroupWise to Exchange And being hooked on Microsoft might not be the best place to be-but still better than stranded on a dying platform. At least Microsoft has a clear roadmap to move to cloud (if that’s what you want to do), By the time cloud became a thing, GroupWise’s remaining install base was too small to support that
  - JSR_FDED 4y ago
    Great answer for what was likely just a pun on “lock-in” :-)
    - skissane 4y ago
      I get it now. I'm somewhat pun-impaired. An autistic trait.
prmoustache 4y ago
> If everyone was abandoning something 15 years ago, who is left today? Those that were and are still afraid of such a migration I guess. I remember using groupwise in the early 2000's at work, it didn't felt much worse than the outlook/exchange and Lotus Notes I have been using later. I think the one particularly worse was Lotus Notes. I think it received some instant messaging just after I left that company but most teams were using rogue jabber/xmpp servers everywhere even on companies that provided Microsoft Lync because the xmpp clients were superior,the experience more reliable and people didn't want to be spied by their bosses/HR teams. It is funny how people have surrendered in most places while nothing prevent them technically to discuss on other instant messaging platforms. Had I been the one tasked to be admin it may have been quite different. I have no idea about groupwise but I remember Lotus Notes admins had some headaches (but they weren't especially smart or knowledgeable people so it may just be that team and not the product). Besides I don't think that email and calendaring are technologies where a particular product makes a huge difference. We don't send and receive emails, manage contacts or schedule meetings much differently than 20y ago. The Outlook/exchange combo is popular because of microsoft enterprise licenses and its integration with active directory (and now Azure). It is really Active Directory that is the product that tightly bind every Microsoft Product together and make them so ubiquitous and competitive against alternatives. I don't know how much Micro Focus sell its solution vs on premise exchange + outlook clients licensing and or office 365 (remember that some company still don't want to go cloud).
- toast0 4y ago
  > Besides I don't think that email and calendaring are technologies where a particular product makes a huge difference. It might not be a huge difference, but slower email clients like Outlook and even GMail these days, increase the overhead of communications and make communication less likely. Maybe it's me, but when corporate email is fast, I'll at least open each mail for a quick scan once a day. When corporate email is slow, I'm only going to maybe scan titles. Also, if Outlook still does things like drain my battery to death if I forget to quit before sleeping, and not work without a restart after a brief sleep with a network change, long startup time means it's unlikely to get started at all. Once that's common, corporate email is no longer a reliable communications method, and that's not great. I could rant about email products that hide email addresses, as if nobody ever worked with two people with the same first name and last name before, or as if spams and scams didn't routinely use good sounding names when they send from someone's unintentional web to email gateway.