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I think it's more about the children having radical surgery backed by zero scientific research. Couldn't care less what adults want do to themselves.
by the_doctah 4y ago
I think it's more about the children having radical surgery backed by zero scientific research. Couldn't care less what adults want do to themselves.
- klyrs 4y agoPeople believing that masses of children are literally getting surgery, circumcision notwithstanding, is a result of a persistent campaign to cause panic. And it's the same hucksters selling fear to the same religious reactionaries. New day, new apocalyptic scapegoat.
- the_doctah 4y agoIt's happening regardless of the disingenous "it's not happening" claims. Here's some reading for you. There are many more examples. Cute swipe at religion though. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11377391/Age-just-number-Video-shows-doctor-trans-clinic-Philadelphia-defends-surgery-kids.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11377391/Age-just...
- klyrs 4y ago1. Nobody claims it's not happening at all, that's you moving the goalpost. 2. You're kinda proving my point; the Daily Mail is one of the sensationalist tabloids that were flogging the Satanic Panic bullshit back in the day.
- the_doctah 4y ago>2. You're kinda proving my point; the Daily Mail is one of the sensationalist tabloids that were flogging the Satanic Panic bullshit back in the day. Show me the lies in the article instead of attacking the publisher. Bad faith argument.
- at_a_remove 4y ago[flagged]
- Timon3 4y agoYou just made a wild jump. Do you think hormones are a type of surgery?
- at_a_remove 4y agoThat's weird. I used the conjunctive and, not "hormones, a subtype of surgery." Did you read it another way by accident?
- klyrs 4y agoYour parent was complaining about you shifting the goalpost from surgery to medication. They could have done so with less snark, but the complaint is fair: hormone blockers are less invasive than hormones, which are in turn less invasive than surgery. All three call for different criteria. Ignoring that difference is seen by some here as intellectually dishonest. And to answer your question, no, I believe that such matters should largely be decided between doctor and patient. I do not think that highly polarized politics should be driving medical decisions, and that medical ethics boards are much better suited to make policies in situations like this.
- MrPatan 4y agoThey are a type of procedure with irreversible life-altering consequences that somehow you think children can consent to.
- heavyset_go 4y agoIf they can't consent to this, then they can't consent to almost any surgery. They even couldn't consent to getting braces.
- 4y ago
- transcoderx 4y ago[flagged]
- chownie 4y agoTavistock also were not performing surgeries on children. Trans people often don't even receive hormones until they're 16, I don't know how this idea that they're receiving surgery on a whim makes any sense to anyone.
- transcoderx 4y agoBullshit, 16 would be too late for hormone blockers. The blockers are also said to prevent the kids from adapting to their biological gender, leading onto a path to surgery. I am amazed how willing to lie people are in this forum.
- chownie 4y agoHormone blockers suppress the expression of estrogen and testosterone, I was very clearly referring to hormone replacement therapy. Moral of the story is, people aren't lying just because you refuse to read the words written literally on the screen.
- transcoderx 4y agoI meant to say puberty blockers, not hormone blockers. Which should have been quite obvious from the context.
- chownie 4y agoI think it's less obvious because you brought them up without context. Not going to walk back that accusation that I'm a liar, now you know that you were talking about something else?
- flir 4y agoAs a very rough rule of thumb, if it comes in pill form, it's probably not surgery.
- hoseja 4y ago[flagged]
- chownie 4y agoProvide the evidence, you'll quickly find that it doesn't support the claim. No children (prepubescent) are given surgeries, a tiny minority of 16 year olds are able to receive top surgeries but the vast majority can't even get hormones until late teens.
- account42 4y ago> a tiny minority of 16 year olds are able to receive top surgeries And this is supposed to be an argument for "it never happens"? You don't see a problem with confused girls who are still coming to terms with their bodies having medically unnecessary surgery to have healthy organs removed? And yes, some of them are regretting that when they grow up. Some of them are even willing to speak up. But I'm sure you will not listen.
- Timon3 4y agoMany people regret surgeries and similar. Should we ban knee surgery? Hip replacements? Should teenage girls be barred from breast reduction surgery? If not, can you clearly differentiate between these cases?
- the_doctah 4y agoThe things you listed are physical ailments. The last time we treated mental illness with surgery, it was called a lobotomy.
- Timon3 4y agoWhy does it matter if it's physical or mental? People regret all those surgeries at a much, much higher rate. Incredibly few trans people do, and those that transition are much less likely to commit suicide. But I somehow get the feeling that's not a good thing for everyone.
- account42 4y ago[flagged]
- klyrs 4y agoCis/hetero-normativity is sexual ideology though. And there's a big difference between "pushing" and "accepting." I've seen a parent shun their 3-year old for playing dress-up -- "I can't love you if you do this". That's pushing gender ideology. My kid's grandparents started asking him if he has a "girlfriend" at around 4. That's pushing a sexual ideology. You don't need to be religious to buy into dogmatic misinformation campaigns, no.
- the_doctah 4y ago>Cis/hetero-normativity is sexual ideology though Actually, we call it "instinct". You know, how animals know to have sex with each other and make babies. It's hilarious anyone can refer to it as ideological with a straight face. It's disingenuous.
- klyrs 4y agoRape is also "instinct." We can do better.
- the_doctah 4y agoWhat a shit argument. If rape was instinct this world would be a lot different. But you knew that. Disingenuous.
- deserialized 4y agoIf that were true circumcision and forced surgery on intersex kids would be banned too.
- friend_and_foe 4y agoThat's also a good idea.
- deserialized 4y agoYes, it is - but that would upend the 'only two genders/sexes' status quo and we can't have that. Imagine the mass panic and moral decay that would ensue. Why bother loving your kid for who they are when you can just ask the docker to slice them up before they can consent? Or deny them access to Healthcare based on your own feelings because you really like your kids genitals... /s
- account42 4y ago[flagged]
- Freak_NL 4y agoCircumcision is one of those things that make me pessimistic about any societal change. It's an unthinkable act in most of the world, and broadly considered medically unnecessary for something like 99.9% of penises. With the exception of some religious nuts, no one does this to their son in countries like mine, but in the US the status quo means that the chance you'll lose your foreskin as a baby is about that of calling heads on the flip of a coin. It just doesn't seem to be about facts at all. The apparent fact that the people who are pushing for personhood of embryos and rage against people reading a book in drag seem perfectly fine with male genital mutilation really highlights that this isn't about the welfare of the children at all. As the father of a young son: damn, people are stupid.
- altacc 4y agoYep, cultural inertia is a powerful thing. Very little about human decision making is about facts. People largely come to an emotional decision based on group identity, prior bias, etc... and then do post hoc justification with curated "facts" from sources they approve of.
- cersei 4y agoAh right, "but think of the children"
- themitigating 4y agoIs that why drag shows are banned?
- zrail 4y agoChildren don't receive elective surgery. It's just not a thing, in any medical guidelines or ethics rules, anywhere in the country. Older teens, _extremely rarely_, are allowed to have top surgery, but it's case by case. Children _can_ receive puberty blockers, which _by definition_ are 100% completely reversible. The process to start treatment is universally difficult and involves multiple years of therapy and concurrence of multiple medical providers over time. Source: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/aug/10/ron-desantis/transition-related-surgery-limited-teens-not-young/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/aug/10/ron-desant...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bilkoob 4y ago[flagged]
- the_doctah 4y ago>There are no examples we could find, or the governor's office provided, of transition-related surgeries for people under the age of 14. 14 isn't a child anymore? Your left-leaning political fact checking source sucks. Here's some reading for you. Do some real research. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11377391/Age-just-number-Video-shows-doctor-trans-clinic-Philadelphia-defends-surgery-kids.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11377391/Age-just...
- transcoderx 4y agoNo, puberty blockers are not 100% reversible and they are not harmless, either. Surgeries are not rare, either - at least it is debatable what should be considered "rare".
- vincnetas 4y agoDo you have numbers on surgeries. Im curious how "not rate" are they.
- 4y ago