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Htmx has such an old man yells at cloud vibe. People don't like fat js clients because of "view transitions", they like the developer experience, composability

Htmx has such an old man yells at cloud vibe. People don't like fat js clients because of "view transitions", they like the developer experience, composability of components, and benefitting from a vibrant ecosystem that is constantly innovating.

mdavidn 4y ago
I despise JS clients because I hate waiting for the entire thing to download and initialize every time I visit a site to make a quick change. Looking at you, Hello Fresh.
- squidsoup 4y ago
  Most popular js frameworks support SSR - it isn't appropriate to use an SPA for a public app like Hello Fresh, that's on them.
zhte415 4y ago
I just like the user experience coupled with a dead simple development experience. Simple CRUD webapps, which is a lot of things, don't need unique user experiences; oftentimes the less unique the better.
adamzochowski 4y ago
Constantly innovating can also be interpreted as 'having no standard'. I had developed sites for 25 years. I still have a corporate site that was developed 20 years ago, and it returns more results, and is faster to render than most of new fangled SPA I seen deployed on servers 20x larger. I do agree with you that SPA (react and its ilk) have cleaner benefit of composability of components, but I would posit that AJAX and component state/props has made for less reliable web. I often find myself in situation where SPAs crash mid way during concert or flight purchase - be it JS error, or network instability. Reloading the page doesn't get SPA to resume where it crashed, but often throws additional errors, saying I am already mid way in checkout (but I can't continue), or invalidating session (but still remembering that my other session was in process of buying a seat, so I can't reselect the seat I wanted. Finally, they are terrible for bookmarking or sharing. So the composability of components, a benefit, came with a need for developer to be extra careful about failure modes, resuming states, bookmarking directly to specific content. Most developers are not careful, and the old html per page model forces different mentality for dealing with failures, and content availability.
- sgt 4y ago
  People are emotionally attached to SPA's because they are: 1) Annoyed by page refreshes 2) SPA's is a special skill now, frontend developers take pride in knowing everything about React, Vue, Angular and spending hours and hours updating their NPM dependencies. How can they justify all the time spent if it's not almost like a science? 3) Separates the frontend guys from the backend guys. Technologies like HTMX allows the backend developer to pretty much do the whole job, which concerns a few people.
  - robertoandred 4y ago
    Allowing a backend dev to do frontend should concern everyone. They are very distinct skillsets.
    - sgt 4y ago
      That's not true though. Yes, if it needs to be a complex and breathtaking frontend that has all the bells and the whistles. But backend developers often need or have a desire to build a perfectly usable frontend for their service, without relying on a frontend person to start with. This could be due to project ambitions or budget.
  - sanitycheck 4y ago
    Eh, backend devs don't want to do the whole job. They want to provide a single excessively complicated API which all client-side (web, Android, iOS, TV, IoT, etc) devs can consume without disturbing them (at the cost of 10 requests to render a single page). They definitely do not want to be involved in generating specific HTML fragments and subsequently fiddling with them whenever a designer decides something needs a minor alteration. I've looked a bit for examples of HTMX in the wild, and the only times I've found it it's been so slow I would have preferred a full page refresh which at least lets me bookmark/navigate properly and involves no JS at all. Not enough data to really form a strong opinion though, I freely admit.
    - sgt 4y ago
recursivedoubts 4y ago
well, i am old and i do yell at clouds (i live in montana, and it's been a really long winter) but... am i out of touch? no, it is the children who are wrong...
- rlawson 4y ago
  This is the best response possible!
- JodieBenitez 4y ago
  Indeed ! HTMX is one of these rare tools that have an immediate, high added value with very little to no learning curve and no downside... a complete no-brainer, I love it.
pier25 4y ago
People don't like fat js clients because they are bloated and very often provide subpar UX (spinnerfest, broken back, etc).
JodieBenitez 4y ago
If HTMX is "old man yells at cloud" meme, then fat js clients is "I have no idea what I'm doing" meme.
selcuka 4y ago
As someone else pointed out in another comment, htmx is not a replacement for JS frameworks. It is a way to add some level of interactivity without needing to learn too much about UI development. The authors actually recommended coupling htmx with a client side framework if your needs are more complex.
adamckay 4y ago
> constantly innovating Don’t mistake activity for achievement.

mdavidn 4y ago

I despise JS clients because I hate waiting for the entire thing to download and initialize every time I visit a site to make a quick change. Looking at you, Hello Fresh.

squidsoup 4y ago
Most popular js frameworks support SSR - it isn't appropriate to use an SPA for a public app like Hello Fresh, that's on them.

zhte415 4y ago

I just like the user experience coupled with a dead simple development experience. Simple CRUD webapps, which is a lot of things, don't need unique user experiences; oftentimes the less unique the better.

adamzochowski 4y ago

Constantly innovating can also be interpreted as 'having no standard'. I had developed sites for 25 years. I still have a corporate site that was developed 20 years ago, and it returns more results, and is faster to render than most of new fangled SPA I seen deployed on servers 20x larger. I do agree with you that SPA (react and its ilk) have cleaner benefit of composability of components, but I would posit that AJAX and component state/props has made for less reliable web. I often find myself in situation where SPAs crash mid way during concert or flight purchase - be it JS error, or network instability. Reloading the page doesn't get SPA to resume where it crashed, but often throws additional errors, saying I am already mid way in checkout (but I can't continue), or invalidating session (but still remembering that my other session was in process of buying a seat, so I can't reselect the seat I wanted. Finally, they are terrible for bookmarking or sharing. So the composability of components, a benefit, came with a need for developer to be extra careful about failure modes, resuming states, bookmarking directly to specific content. Most developers are not careful, and the old html per page model forces different mentality for dealing with failures, and content availability.

sgt 4y ago
People are emotionally attached to SPA's because they are: 1) Annoyed by page refreshes 2) SPA's is a special skill now, frontend developers take pride in knowing everything about React, Vue, Angular and spending hours and hours updating their NPM dependencies. How can they justify all the time spent if it's not almost like a science? 3) Separates the frontend guys from the backend guys. Technologies like HTMX allows the backend developer to pretty much do the whole job, which concerns a few people.
- robertoandred 4y ago
  Allowing a backend dev to do frontend should concern everyone. They are very distinct skillsets.
  - sgt 4y ago
    That's not true though. Yes, if it needs to be a complex and breathtaking frontend that has all the bells and the whistles. But backend developers often need or have a desire to build a perfectly usable frontend for their service, without relying on a frontend person to start with. This could be due to project ambitions or budget.
- sanitycheck 4y ago
  Eh, backend devs don't want to do the whole job. They want to provide a single excessively complicated API which all client-side (web, Android, iOS, TV, IoT, etc) devs can consume without disturbing them (at the cost of 10 requests to render a single page). They definitely do not want to be involved in generating specific HTML fragments and subsequently fiddling with them whenever a designer decides something needs a minor alteration. I've looked a bit for examples of HTMX in the wild, and the only times I've found it it's been so slow I would have preferred a full page refresh which at least lets me bookmark/navigate properly and involves no JS at all. Not enough data to really form a strong opinion though, I freely admit.
  - sgt 4y ago

recursivedoubts 4y ago

well, i am old and i do yell at clouds (i live in montana, and it's been a really long winter) but... am i out of touch? no, it is the children who are wrong...

rlawson 4y ago
This is the best response possible!
JodieBenitez 4y ago
Indeed ! HTMX is one of these rare tools that have an immediate, high added value with very little to no learning curve and no downside... a complete no-brainer, I love it.

pier25 4y ago

People don't like fat js clients because they are bloated and very often provide subpar UX (spinnerfest, broken back, etc).

JodieBenitez 4y ago

If HTMX is "old man yells at cloud" meme, then fat js clients is "I have no idea what I'm doing" meme.

selcuka 4y ago

As someone else pointed out in another comment, htmx is not a replacement for JS frameworks. It is a way to add some level of interactivity without needing to learn too much about UI development. The authors actually recommended coupling htmx with a client side framework if your needs are more complex.

adamckay 4y ago

> constantly innovating Don’t mistake activity for achievement.