4 ms·

Have you actually used GPT-4 for translation? Seriously all this talk about only getting explicit meaning across would be easily dispelled in an afternoon if y

Have you actually used GPT-4 for translation? Seriously all this talk about only getting explicit meaning across would be easily dispelled in an afternoon if you only bothered to try.

qorrect 4y ago
Agreed. A lot of these responses read like they haven't actually tried it yet. Which is also interesting, I myself actively put off trying it until I eventually gave in. It seems a lot of us are doing the same, maybe its a case of "how good could it actually be?"
- famouswaffles 4y ago
  Not trying it yet is fine. Making declarative statements on a product you haven't even used is just absurd. Dude clearly hasn't used GPT for translation before and his next reply is telling me the ways GPT should fail based on his pre-conceived notions of its abilities. Except i have actually extensively tested(publicly too) LLMs for translation (even before GPT-4) and basically everything he says is just plain wrong. I'll never understand why people behave like this.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    Apparently GPT-4 can't handle "all this talk about only getting explicit meaning across would be easily dispelled in an afternoon if you only bothered to try.", which isn't simple as "Ace Attorney" but I'd think it's still a small stretch to say "everything he says is just plain wrong".
    - famouswaffles 4y ago
      I'm not sure what you tried to do ? You tried to translate to another language or ?
    - famouswaffles 4y ago
      I think you're trying to translate to japanese ? anyway this is what i got 実際に翻訳のためにGPT-4を使ったことがありますか？本当に、使ってみたら簡単に明確な意味だけを伝えるという話は消えるでしょう。
      - numpad0 4y ago
        aaand we got a new one... in chronological order: 1) 本当に、明示的な意味だけを伝えるという話が、試してみるだけで簡単に解決できるなんて、冗談じゃないですか。 2) 本気で、伝えたい意味だけを伝えるという話は、ちょっと試してみれば簡単に解決できると思うのですが。 3) 本当に、試してみるだけで簡単に払拭できると思うのに、この「明確な意味だけが伝わる」話ばかりで。 4) 本当に、使ってみたら簡単に明確な意味だけを伝えるという話は消えるでしょう。 1) is literally opposite of intent, shrugs off the idea that the talks clear up, 2) can be interpreted as someone discussing about keeping scope on a topic, 3) is not so literal and also turning sentence inside 「」 into a sort of an imperative, 4) ... I'm not sure what it's trying to say ... 本当に、/使ってみたら/簡単に/明確な/意味/だけ/を伝える/という話/は消えるでしょう。/ "Really,/ if used /simply/clear/meaning/only/is conveyed/that story/will disappear./" ... Machine translations used to be like that when I was installing game demos from CD.
wizzwizz4 4y ago
GPT-4 can (1) translate, (2) plagiarise, and (3) feedback ("thinking out loud"). Its ability to feedback (3) allows it to execute algorithms, but only a certain class of algorithms. Without tailored prompting, it's further restricted to (a weak generalisation of) algorithms spelled out in its corpus. This is very cool, but this is a skill I possess too, so it's rarely useful to me. Its ability to plagiarise (2) can make it seem like it has capacity that it doesn't possess, but it's usually possible to poke holes in that facade (if not even identify the sources it's plagiarising from!). It is genuinely capable of explicit translation (1) – though a dedicated setup for translation will work better than ChatGPT-style prompting, even on the same model. A sufficiently-large, sufficiently well-trained model will be genuinely capable of translating idiomatic language (for known idioms), for the same reason it can translate grammatical structures (for known grammar). It can only perform higher-level, "abstract" translations – like those necessary to translate a Phoenix Wright game – if it's overfit on a corpus where such translations exist. (https://xkcd.com/2048/ https://xkcd.com/2048/ last graph) This is not a property you want from a translation model: it gives better results on some inputs, sure, and confident-seeming very wrong results on other inputs. These are two sides of the same coin (2). When the computer can't translate something, I want to be able to look at the result and go "this doesn't look right; I'll crack out a dictionary". I can't do that with GPT-4, because it doesn't give faithfully-literal translations and it isn't capable of giving complete translations correctly: it's not fit for this purpose.
- famouswaffles 4y ago
  Ok so you haven't used it then. I don't care about your whack theories on what it can and can't do. I care about results. You're starting from weird assumptions that don't hold up on the capabilities of the model and then determining its abilities from there. It's extremely silly. Next time, use a product extensively for the specified task before you declare what it is and isn't good for. Literally, everything you've said is just wrong. Can't generate "abstract" translations unless overfit. Lol okay. I've translated passages of fiction across multiple novels to test.
  - wizzwizz4 4y ago

Have you actually used GPT-4 for translation? Seriously all this talk about only getting explicit meaning across would be easily dispelled in an afternoon if you only bothered to try.

qorrect 4y ago

Agreed. A lot of these responses read like they haven't actually tried it yet. Which is also interesting, I myself actively put off trying it until I eventually gave in. It seems a lot of us are doing the same, maybe its a case of "how good could it actually be?"

famouswaffles 4y ago
Not trying it yet is fine. Making declarative statements on a product you haven't even used is just absurd. Dude clearly hasn't used GPT for translation before and his next reply is telling me the ways GPT should fail based on his pre-conceived notions of its abilities. Except i have actually extensively tested(publicly too) LLMs for translation (even before GPT-4) and basically everything he says is just plain wrong. I'll never understand why people behave like this.
- numpad0 4y ago
  Apparently GPT-4 can't handle "all this talk about only getting explicit meaning across would be easily dispelled in an afternoon if you only bothered to try.", which isn't simple as "Ace Attorney" but I'd think it's still a small stretch to say "everything he says is just plain wrong".
  - famouswaffles 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you tried to do ? You tried to translate to another language or ?
  - famouswaffles 4y ago
    I think you're trying to translate to japanese ? anyway this is what i got 実際に翻訳のためにGPT-4を使ったことがありますか？本当に、使ってみたら簡単に明確な意味だけを伝えるという話は消えるでしょう。
    - numpad0 4y ago
      aaand we got a new one... in chronological order: 1) 本当に、明示的な意味だけを伝えるという話が、試してみるだけで簡単に解決できるなんて、冗談じゃないですか。 2) 本気で、伝えたい意味だけを伝えるという話は、ちょっと試してみれば簡単に解決できると思うのですが。 3) 本当に、試してみるだけで簡単に払拭できると思うのに、この「明確な意味だけが伝わる」話ばかりで。 4) 本当に、使ってみたら簡単に明確な意味だけを伝えるという話は消えるでしょう。 1) is literally opposite of intent, shrugs off the idea that the talks clear up, 2) can be interpreted as someone discussing about keeping scope on a topic, 3) is not so literal and also turning sentence inside 「」 into a sort of an imperative, 4) ... I'm not sure what it's trying to say ... 本当に、/使ってみたら/簡単に/明確な/意味/だけ/を伝える/という話/は消えるでしょう。/ "Really,/ if used /simply/clear/meaning/only/is conveyed/that story/will disappear./" ... Machine translations used to be like that when I was installing game demos from CD.

wizzwizz4 4y ago

GPT-4 can (1) translate, (2) plagiarise, and (3) feedback ("thinking out loud"). Its ability to feedback (3) allows it to execute algorithms, but only a certain class of algorithms. Without tailored prompting, it's further restricted to (a weak generalisation of) algorithms spelled out in its corpus. This is very cool, but this is a skill I possess too, so it's rarely useful to me. Its ability to plagiarise (2) can make it seem like it has capacity that it doesn't possess, but it's usually possible to poke holes in that facade (if not even identify the sources it's plagiarising from!). It is genuinely capable of explicit translation (1) – though a dedicated setup for translation will work better than ChatGPT-style prompting, even on the same model. A sufficiently-large, sufficiently well-trained model will be genuinely capable of translating idiomatic language (for known idioms), for the same reason it can translate grammatical structures (for known grammar). It can only perform higher-level, "abstract" translations – like those necessary to translate a Phoenix Wright game – if it's overfit on a corpus where such translations exist. (https://xkcd.com/2048/ https://xkcd.com/2048/ last graph) This is not a property you want from a translation model: it gives better results on some inputs, sure, and confident-seeming very wrong results on other inputs. These are two sides of the same coin (2). When the computer can't translate something, I want to be able to look at the result and go "this doesn't look right; I'll crack out a dictionary". I can't do that with GPT-4, because it doesn't give faithfully-literal translations and it isn't capable of giving complete translations correctly: it's not fit for this purpose.

famouswaffles 4y ago
Ok so you haven't used it then. I don't care about your whack theories on what it can and can't do. I care about results. You're starting from weird assumptions that don't hold up on the capabilities of the model and then determining its abilities from there. It's extremely silly. Next time, use a product extensively for the specified task before you declare what it is and isn't good for. Literally, everything you've said is just wrong. Can't generate "abstract" translations unless overfit. Lol okay. I've translated passages of fiction across multiple novels to test.
- wizzwizz4 4y ago